Mormon Expression

[Anonymous]

Many of you have probably heard of Godwin’s Law:

Quote:

As an online discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches 1.

Godwin’s law notwithstanding, I am a little surprised to hear that it was JD who actually made the comparison. I’m sure that if he had given it some thought, a more appropriate analogy would have come to him. And from what little I knew or heard of him previously, I would have expected better. (Edit: If it was JL, about whom I have no opinion whatsoever, and not JD, never mind)

As I said, I haven’t listened to the podcast, nor do I intend to. Got better things to do, frankly. My comment were, again, based strictly on what I read in the event notice, which I am taking at face value.

mercyngrace wrote:

Quote:

Have you had enough? Are you ready to come out into the light?

When your courage is ready to match your intellectual integrity, it’s time to take a stand.

Come stand with us and feel the light of freedom.

I agree that that could sound stridently offensive. But what would have been a better way to state it? And, to be fair, this is really how it feels and seems to some people — they have had enough and are looking for the courage to make a change. I have to confess that I feel that way myself sometimes. And while JDs comparison was wholly inappropriate and overblown, if I did believe myself to be a member of and contributor to an organization that “that grinds people up socially”, among other things, it would be morally bankrupt not to do something about it.

Let me put it this way: If the missionaries were standing on the corner with a placard reading

Quote:

Have you had enough of worldly sin and evil? Are you ready to come out into the light of the gospel?

When your courage is ready to match your spiritual integrity, it’s time to take a stand.

Come stand with us and feel the light of truth.

… would anyone here have a problem with that? What’s the difference?

[Anonymous]

mercyngrace wrote:

Wayfarer – did you mean John Larsen rather than John Dehlin in the quote attribution?

fixed – thanks.

Doug – I screwed up — it was JL not JD.

[Anonymous]

Doug, I think you would need to hear the whole podcast. I never felt my spiritual integrity was ever questioned by the missionaries involved in sharing the gospel with me. Like I said after taking the time to listen to it (and I had a lot of better things to do today, but still felt for some oddball reason I needed to listen to it) I had a feeling of them being very unbalanced and extreme, on top of being angry. I totally recognize their right to resign from the church if they so feel they need to. But I am very troubled by many things they said in the podcast. I don’t know this couple, but I am worried for them.

[Anonymous]

It’s hard to swim in bile for a long time without getting contaminated by it.

This is a great example of what happens when Stage 4 lasts too long. Cancer kills, especially if it actually is nourished and fed.

[Anonymous]

doug wrote:

Let me put it this way: If the missionaries were standing on the corner with a placard reading

Quote:

Have you had enough of worldly sin and evil? Are you ready to come out into the light of the gospel?

When your courage is ready to match your spiritual integrity, it’s time to take a stand.

Come stand with us and feel the light of truth.

… would anyone here have a problem with that? What’s the difference?

“What’s the difference” is precisely the point, Doug. Here’s how I responded to you earlier:

This is the kind of black and white thinking that John would mock if it were coming from a believer… his comments… are … every bit as dogmatic as those he opposes.

[Anonymous]

Doug, I would have the same reaction to a missionary attacking people outside the church the way the Larsen’s were attacking the church with their words and the intent of their organized protest. absolutely!

I would not have had the same reaction with someone saying they want to leave the church, and encourage others to come out with talking about their doubts about the church so we don’t live our lives in fear or secrecy.

I think you’d have to listen to them directly to understand my reaction. But honestly, I think you are wise to not waste your time on it.

I am more interested in hearing how you think you might be more morally responsible to help the orchestra, given your thoughts and feelings. Is the church all bad? Is the only option for anyone with integrity resignation? What do you think?

[PS- just to be clear to anyone following this thread, John Dehlin was not part of any of this discussion or podcast or any statements given. That was a typo and it should be clear it as John Larsen, not John Dehlin. Ok…back to our program…]

[Anonymous]

Quote:

Let me put it this way: If the missionaries were standing on the corner with a placard reading

Quote:

Have you had enough of worldly sin and evil? Are you ready to come out into the light of the gospel?

When your courage is ready to match your spiritual integrity, it’s time to take a stand.

Come stand with us and feel the light of truth.

… would anyone here have a problem with that?

Yes, I would have a problem with the second line – the challenge after the questions.

Theoretically, I would have no problem with the questions and the final statement, but I wouldn’t like the idea of them standing on a corner with the placard. It’s a valid approach to missionary work, but it’s not my thing. The second line (the judgmental challenge), however, is over the line, imo – and, while too many members will say something like that about people who accept what the missionaries teach but won’t join the Church, it’s instructive that the LDS Church doesn’t take that tack in its formal missionary approach. Iow, from strictly that perspective, the podcast in question actually goes far beyond the tactics employed by the organization attacked in it – and they probably don’t get the irony.

[Anonymous]

Heber13 wrote:

[PS- just to be clear to anyone following this thread, John Dehlin was not part of any of this discussion or podcast or any statements given. That was a typo and it should be clear it as John Larsen, not John Dehlin. Ok…back to our program…]

I’m so embarrassed… 😳

[Anonymous]

wayfarer wrote:

I’m so embarrassed… 😳

no worries, mate.

[Anonymous]

Heber13 wrote:

Doug, I would have the same reaction to a missionary attacking people outside the church the way the Larsen’s were attacking the church with their words and the intent of their organized protest. absolutely!

I would not have had the same reaction with someone saying they want to leave the church, and encourage others to come out with talking about their doubts about the church so we don’t live our lives in fear or secrecy.

I think you’d have to listen to them directly to understand my reaction. But honestly, I think you are wise to not waste your time on it.

I am more interested in hearing how you think you might be more morally responsible to help the orchestra, given your thoughts and feelings. Is the church all bad? Is the only option for anyone with integrity resignation? What do you think?

Well, I don’t want to be known as the guy who defended the guy that compared the church to a bunch of nazis. Likely if I had listened to the podcast, I would have had a different reaction, and as I have no intention of doing so, I’ll just leave it at that.

My initial reaction was to some of the initial comments that seemed to be saying that even severely disaffected members of the church shouldn’t leave because by doing so they will reinforce stereotypes. I don’t get that. Also, that publicizing leaving the church is somehow hitting below the belt. It seems to me that trying to get public support for the things we do is the most natural thing in the world. Pretty much everyone does that, especially the church.

Heber, from my point of view, in my particular situation, and given my personality and abilities (or lack thereof), I think that staying with the intent of “helping the orchestra” is a fool’s errand. I realize that not everyone feels that way, but I see it as a very personal journey.

… and I’m glad to hear it wasn’t JD!

[Anonymous]

Doug, just to be crystal clear, I have no problem whatsoever with individual members leaving if there is something truly egregious, harmful, extreme, etc. going on. I have said publicly that I understand why many homosexual members leave, for example, and if a local leader is abusing a spouse and/or children . . . I get it – really.

What I was saying is that too many people leave only because they perceive themselves to be different – or out of a mistaken notion that it’s the only way to be true to their consciences and have integrity – when, in reality, they would end up staying and being just fine if they were more patient and found ways to build their own testimonies. Some can’t do that, and I have absolutely no argument against them leaving.

It’s when those who choose to leave try to recruit others to leave with them – when they start to encourage people to leave who, in many cases, are still in the initial stages of their faith crises and who don’t need to be making such a drastic decision that early . . . it’s when that happens that my alarms go off and I oppose the action.

That is what the Larsens appear to be doing, and I just can’t get behind that in any way.

If you want a little more perspective about what I mean, here are a couple of links to posts on my personal blog:

“Truly Loving Those Who Leave” (http://thingsofmysoul.blogspot.com/2010/03/truly-loving-those-who-leave.html)

“Within the Church, Be the Change You Desire” (http://thingsofmysoul.blogspot.com/2011/05/within-church-be-change-you-desire.html)

[Anonymous]

I felt a little betrayed I guess. I’m a big ME fan, and felt like john and zilpha were pretty good icons about how folks could look past the foolishness and dangers of the church and still be part of the community. …and the DAMU community.

They really went over the top. And that announcement about “courage and integrity”….

That is low. It took them 7 years of middle way before they walked…why not continue to support the rest of us as we walk the path, and recognize that it does work for some…for some time. And for others it will not.

Sent from my SCH-I500 using Tapatalk 2

[Anonymous]

Ray, cwald – I completely agree.

John & Zilpha have lost my respect, so I’m done with this topic. In fact, the Larsen’s position strengthens my resolve to stay in and committed to my version of the Middle Way

Compare their screed to the latest MormonStories podcast with Benji Schwimmer… A world of difference. While the church may not be for everyone, we can dialogue with respect, and allow others their difference of opinion without resorting to insult.

[Anonymous]

Quote:

And there have been all sorts of social movements that have built themselves on the backs of other people, on slavery or whatever, going and bombing, um, you know, Eurasia or whatever. You can make for a better life. But just because you individually benefit from a system that’s grinding people up does not morally justify it

I agree with this general idea. It seems to be the lot of all organizations to weigh the benefit of the whole with the benefit and freedoms of the individual. Some freedoms are voluntarily abdicated by those joining the group, other times it is simply a case of the needs of the many outweighing the needs of the few. On example of this is in US foreign policy, what happens when we need a strategic location for a base or whatever but there is a village there. Hopefully the displaced villagers get compensated for the trouble. But if the need is sufficient – we’ll find a way to make it happen – similar to the concept of eminent domain in our local communities. What if a terrorist leader is hiding in that same village and we know that if we go in there could be collateral damage, when does our right to catch a dangerous fugitive outweigh the villager’s right to live in peace and safety? What about the justice system which represents a process that approximates justice – but can sometimes get it wrong and imprison the innocent? The justice system, for all its faults and propensity to grind up a few innocent people now and again – serves the greater good and provides a large benefit to the majority. We contribute our taxes to such organizations – organizations that are not moral, nor immoral, but amoral.

The church is similar. As a businessman, I recognize the right of the church to tell its own story – to “manage its brand.” Sometimes certain members of the church may do or say things publicly that contradict the brand. The fact that this info comes from members of the church may seem like tacit approval. At some point the church may exert some influence to curtail this behavior. In some cases this may go as far as excommunication. I can only imagine the turmoil this may cause on the individual. Even in such extreme examples, I recognize the conflict – the opposition, not between good and bad but between real people that all have real needs and real feelings.

What do we do about it? “God grant me the strength to change the things I can, the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, and the wisdom to know the difference.”

(sometimes in my desire to change things, I may even try to rally other people to my cause – perhaps even start a counter organization, and now I become “we.” Maybe in our zeal we may step on a few toes, require burdonsome sacrifices from supporters, and otherwise “grind people up.” Thus the cycle begins again.)

[Anonymous]

Roy wrote:

(sometimes in my desire to change things, I may even try to rally other people to my cause – perhaps even start a counter organization, and now I become “we.” Maybe in our zeal we may step on a few toes, require burdonsome sacrifices from supporters, and otherwise “grind people up.” Thus the cycle begins again.)

For some reason, I’m reminded of a line from the Dark Knight…

You either die a hero or you live long enough to see yourself become the villain.

[Author]

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