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Yes the culture can be oppressive…pretty consistent with all major religions. There is what the church does to us, but more importantly, there is what we do to each other and to ourselves. The grinder is multidimensional. The question is what to do about it. I see four moral ethical standards here:
1. I will not allow others to define my worth. This includes the cognate of worth: “worthiness.”
2. I will accept and love others without judgment. And this is really hard for me: but I should not find myself in the position of causing offense.
3. I will forgive others as I would ne forgiven… This is also hard.
4. I will stand in effective opposition of injustice conducted by the church in which I belong. Effective opposition often means patient dialog and participation in a way that my voice may have an effect.
None of this is easy. I don’t think there is just one answer to being disaffected. We need enlightened members to make a difference in the church. Disaffection can open the mind to a more excellent way based upon godly love.
Just ran across a full page ad in the USA Today with the title – IT”S TIME TO QUIT THE CATHOLIC CHURCH. It seemed like déjà-vu. One paragraph in particular: Quote:If you think you can change the church from within – get it to lighten up on birth control, gay rights, marriage equality, embryonic stem-cell research – you’re deluding yourself. By remaining a “good catholic,” you are doing “bad” to women’s rights. You are an enabler. And it’s got to stop.
The entire ad is full of inflammatory and loaded language. The end of the ad asks, “Please, exit en Mass.” right before asking for donations.
The full ad can be found here:
http://ffrf.org/news/releases/ffrfs-quit-the-catholic-church-ad-in-weekend-usa-today/ (The site is the Freedom From Religion Foundation. While anti-religion they don’t appear to have honed in on the Mormons yet)
Wayfarer, +1 to your suggestions!
The ad has a point…. Advocacy from within is self delusion. But advocacy from outside is completely ignored. So, I guess the role of Don Quixote is ok by this wayfaring fool.
I am sitting here in HPG, wondering if any brother here is on the same page I am… Not really, no.
I don’t think “being the change” inside the church is a fool’s errand. Have you see any Utah Pride parade photos from earlier today? They are turning up on facebook and providing members an opportunity to express their feelings of love and tolerance to other members. I see a lot of potential for increasing love, understanding, and mutual respect as faithful members push back against a culture that sometimes confuses high standards for judgmental intolerance.
I’ve seen major changes at the local level initiated and driven by advocacy from within – by both local leaders and regular members. I’ve also seen significant change at the global level in my lifetime that was initiated and driven by advocacy from within. Vitriolic, strident, confrontational, angry advocacy from within is delusional – but humble, loving advocacy by those who are seen as faithful is not. It’s not always effective, but it sometimes is.
amen, ray, m&g. perhaps the only real Way to affect change is from within, by persuasion, by long-suffering, by gentleness and meekness, and by love unfeigned; by kindness, and pure knowledge, which shall greatly enlarge the soul without hypocrisy, and without guile.
but you know? BH Roberts tried to move toward a notion of truth and integrity, but with Joseph Fielding Smith in the hardline iron-rod position, he went to his death frustrated. when Roberts’ allies passed away, JFS used the opportunity to solidify hardline positions that are with us until and through today, with BKP and others as JFS’s successors.
Old-Timer wrote:I’ve seen major changes at the local level initiated and driven by advocacy from within
mercyngrace wrote:I don’t think “being the change” inside the church is a fool’s errand.Have you see any Utah Pride parade photos from earlier today? They are turning up on facebook and providing members an opportunity to express their feelings of love and tolerance to other members. I see a lot of potential for increasing love, understanding, and mutual respect as faithful members push back against a culture that sometimes confuses high standards for judgmental intolerance.
Yes! This is what I hope for, that individual members can enact change. My family and I were lucky to be able to be in the Pride parade today and it was truly amazing. The support for it on my facebook page has been great and you never know who you might influence.
mercyngrace wrote:I don’t think “being the change” inside the church is a fool’s errand.
I didn’t mean to imply that it was … for everyone. I know that there are many that feel like they can have a positive impact from within, and for all I know, they may be very successful at it. I’m just saying that that is not my experience, that I don’t seem to be capable of effecting that kind of change, and that in my particular unit, the attitudes that distress me seem to be so firmly entrenched as to be unassailable.
I should say, though, that I do continue to teach a youth SS class. While I wouldn’t last five minutes in a GD class, these teenagers are pretty tolerant when I steer the discussion away from the parts of the manual that I find the most inane, and towards topics of love, kindness, forgiveness and tolerance. Maybe I’m not so hopeless (i.e. without hope) after all.
doug wrote:mercyngrace wrote:I don’t think “being the change” inside the church is a fool’s errand.
I didn’t mean to imply that it was … for everyone. I know that there are many that feel like they can have a positive impact from within, and for all I know, they may be very successful at it. I’m just saying that that is not my experience, that I don’t seem to be capable of effecting that kind of change, and that in my particular unit, the attitudes that distress me seem to be so firmly entrenched as to be unassailable.
I should say, though, that I do continue to teach a youth SS class. While I wouldn’t last five minutes in a GD class, these teenagers are pretty tolerant when I steer the discussion away from the parts of the manual that I find the most inane, and towards topics of love, kindness, forgiveness and tolerance. Maybe I’m not so hopeless (i.e. without hope) after all.
I hear you. And I agree – everyone can’t be the crazy guy in the back of High Priests or the lady in Gospel Doctrine who won’t stop sharing her opinions (me). And to be honest, I can’t really say that I have had a big influence on my present ward. People seem pretty great with or without me. What I will say is that I speak up all the time. I reframe the discussion when I feel it moving away from what I believe to be the gospel and I try to recenter it on “the weightier matters of the law.” This has never been met with anything but appreciation and people know who I am and apparently find me safe enough to share their lives with, a fact evidenced by late night calls to share burdens and whispered confessions from people who need to know they are loved in spite of their shortcomings. Not only do they tolerate me and confide in me, the more I speak up, the more they ask me to teach. LOL.
Then again, maybe I should shut up or leave…
😆 Wow, cool discussion. I missed a flurry of conversation. I still can’t seem to download the episode. It dies on me every time at around 80% complete. I need to try on a different computer/internet connection. The one here isn’t very good. doug wrote:I know that there are many that feel like they can have a positive impact from within, and for all I know, they may be very successful at it.
I’m just saying that that is not my experience, that I don’t seem to be capable of effecting that kind of change,…. Yep. +1
But I’m perhaps hopeful that there might be others out there who could do what I have failed to do, and given up faith to ever accomplish.
And…I’m not convinced the church can be changed from within, from the bottom up… BUT, so what? Perhaps the church will never evolve or reform? I still think it is at least one path that does work for many people, and I’m going to be supportive of those who choose to walk it.
That’s one of the reasons I love and admire you so much, cwald. You have a good heart, and you haven’t let the crap you’ve experienced change that. I really admire that deeply. The premise if the OP is incorrect. Cwald,
You may have mistaken “Mormon Expression” with “Mormon Stories”. Which is easy to do both are run by guys named “John”
You see, Mormon Expressions doesn’t advocate the middle way as you have implied.
I agree that his reference to Nazi was out of order but ME isn’t middle way that’s MS.
Sent from my Nexus S 4G using Tapatalk 2
I haven’t had the time for many weeks to keep up with NOM. I just wandered over there and saw the thread announcing the mass resignations. WOW!!!! what a backlash! I was a little surprised. I’m not a fan of this event coming up, obviously, but those folks over there at NOM really didn’t take too kindly to the way it was presented either. I finally downloaded the podcast at home where I have a much better internet connection. I was only able to listen to the first 20 minutes or so this morning on my way in to work.
afterallwecando wrote:The premise if the OP is incorrect.
Cwald,
You may have mistaken “Mormon Expression” with “Mormon Stories”. Which is easy to do both are run by guys named “John”
You see, Mormon Expressions doesn’t advocate the middle way as you have implied.
I agree that his reference to Nazi was out of order but ME isn’t middle way that’s MS.
Sent from my Nexus S 4G using Tapatalk 2
No. I was not mistaken. I know the difference between John Larsen/Mormon Expression and John Dehlin/Mormon Stories. John Larsen has spent 7 years demonstrating empathy and helping folks like me navigate a “middle way” withing the church…ME (John, Glen, George, Tom and even
Mike Tannahill
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