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convert1992 wrote:
Remember when Monson gave a talk where he told the story of a Mormon who was shot down over the Pacific and used his priesthood to command a US submarine to surface?
Sounds like a win-win to me. If you are rescued the you will have a great faith promoting story. If not then noboby ever needs to hear about your failure.
I do tend to agree that Mormons belive in a personal and interventionist God more than some other Christians.
Roy wrote:I do tend to agree that Mormons belive in a personal and interventionist God more than some other Christians.
I suppose that’s true. I know of stake presidents that have called on the members to fast for rain in times of drought.
It’s funny that we have this peculiarity in our culture because from what I can tell the church teaches independence and accountability more than some other Christian denominations that teach complete dependence on God. I was always taught not to simply pray for those in need, hoping that God would grant them a stroke of good luck, but that I would recognize those who I could help and know how to. I was taught not to pray that I would do well on a test but to study and give my best effort, then pray that I would have a clear mind to recall as much as I had prepared. This approach to prayer and view of my relationship with God has served me well, despite other doubts.
The most meaningful experiences I’ve had haven’t been finding lost objects, but receiving inspiration or guidance when facing challenges. Those are the experience that keep me from being an atheist or even deist, it’s one of the reasons I StayLDS. I believe if God does at times intervene, he does so by inspiring imperfect yet compassionate humans.
One of my favorite mormon teachings is relying on the spirit, particularly listening to the still small voice inside of us, though it can be detrimental if taken to the extreme, it can create a healthy habit of introspection and develop intuition.
Unknown wrote:Roy wrote:
The most meaningful experiences I’ve had haven’t been finding lost objects, but receiving inspiration or guidance when facing challenges. Those are the experience that keep me from being an atheist or even deist, it’s one of the reasons I StayLDS. I believe if God does at times intervene, he does so by inspiring imperfect yet compassionate humans.One of my favorite mormon teachings is relying on the spirit, particularly listening to the still small voice inside of us, though it can be detrimental if taken to the extreme, it can create a healthy habit of introspection and develop intuition.
Interesting, those are the exact opposite of my experiences, and of course why I was nearly atheist and am pretty much a deist. But I have also chosen to StayLDS.
Miracles happen all the time. The fact we exist and are talking to one another is a miracle. SamBee wrote:Miracles happen all the time. The fact we exist and are talking to one another is a miracle.
I agree with that, SamBee, and that’s why I believe there is a God. Thing is, those miracles (or blessings) are not unique to me or you – everybody gets them, even non-Mormons. People find their car keys every day without praying about it. People recover from serious illnesses every day without blessings or prayers. People get admitted to their first choice college, find new jobs, and get unexpected checks from Grandma all the time without prayer or tithing. Miracles, magic, or nothing at all?
I like to believe that if something is important to me, it is important to my Heavenly Father. If that means helping me find my car keys in a pinch, I’ll take that help. If it’s helping me know what to say to a loved one in hard times, I’ll take that too. And, if it means not dying on my way home from church, I’ll take that as well. I think the issue with the car keys is that it seems to be one of those things that we refer to over and over in testimony meetings and cult stories. “I know the Church is true because God helped me find my car keys this week. Tender Mercies.” It is an example of a testimony of the Church based on little, unrelated things that happen that strengthen our faith in the existence of a loving Heavenly Father. “I found my keys. Church is true!” I find that attitude about faith annoying too. I think most people who try to have a thoughtful faith within any religion do. It feels more like superstition than faith.
The belief that a loving, interventionist Heavenly Father would help find car keys seems consistent with TBM beliefs. Calling it mormon magic seems somewhat derogatory for a belief that many LDS are taught from the time we’re in nursery. If there is a God who loves us and helps us, what’s the difference between answering a prayer to help me know if I should marry somebody, to heal a sick child, to bless my bean burrito that I’m about to eat, or to help me find something important to me? Praying for even trivial things doesn’t seem negative and in a way can demonstrate an appealing humility. There’s probably a happy medium somewhere between attributing everything to God and nothing to God.
DarkJedi wrote:SamBee wrote:Miracles
happen all the time. The fact we exist and are talking to one another
is a miracle.
I agree with that, SamBee, and that’s why I believe there is a God.
Thing is, those miracles (or blessings) are not unique to me or you –
everybody gets them, even non-Mormons. People find their car keys every
day without praying about it. People recover from serious illnesses
every day without blessings or prayers. People get admitted to their
first choice college, find new jobs, and get unexpected checks from
Grandma all the time without prayer or tithing. Miracles, magic, or
nothing at all?
Totally agree with you. Irish Catholics pray to St Anthony to recover
lost things and a friend taught me it. It’s oddly effective sometimes! Me and St Anthony have an
agreement – I don’t convert to Roman Catholicism, but I do put a bit of
money into the St Anthony’s homeless fund down the road at the RC
chapel, which they use to produce food etc, if he seems to help me… so real or not, folk do
get the benefit!
I marvel pretty much every day at the fact I exist and am conscious
though. That is a miracle, according to religion, and even science to a
degree.
I do not see we are trying to compare Mormon beliefs in a God that is actively involved in his children’s life to that of modern day protestants. Don’t get me wrong, I think we could learn a lot from JWs and 7th days about improving our missionary program and retention, and the Salvation army and several churches that get out on their on the front lines and help people directly with family/emotional and home situations and poverty one on one for doing good in the community. I think as church members we like to keep to ourselves too much. But I do not think that a belief in a non-involved God would be an improvement for our church. Saying that God does not perform miracles rings too much of Moroni Ch. 7 when he says that if people say that God can do no miracles, it is because they do not have faith. This may be a good explanation for why some explain that God has went on vacation, when in the Bible God was very involved in the lives of the Isrealites such as manna, send down fire from heaven, prevailing against their foes, etc. We all know the stories. If a view of God as an involved God and his leaders is wrong, than that would make Christ a the biggest conaseur of tricks that should not have been performed and his prophets and apostles following along the same line with their miracles. But we know this is not the case, Christ performed miracles to show a likeness of how involved the atonement is or can be a resolving problems in our individual lives and also likewise that God is involved in the details. Christ said that he doeth as the Father does. I forgot to pay my tithing for a couple of months in college. I could find a good job for that time but I was working a little part time. I noticed what I did and decided to catch myself up on the tithing I had not paid. The next day I was rear ended by someone with good insurance. My car was a beater so I did mind it getting dented a little bit. But insurance paid me the amount of money I missed from those couple of months of work. I am not saying that tithing is a magic solution for every problem and is not a get rich scheme, but I do know that the Lord has not let me go hungry and somehow I have always made my bills come out. Keep in mind that Malachi ch 3 is a promise to all Christian to the tithe to the Lord. The Lord did not say that promise goes away when he died and I know many Christians that acknowledge miracles in their lives today. I do not agree with those on websites who are actively against the Church and who attribute any blessing brought up by Mormons as dumb luck, but they are more then happy to let the Church take the credit for all the crappy things that happened to them when they were members once upon a time. Anyway, thats my rant. Not meaning to preach or throw this in any ones faces, but I think an accurate view of our relationship to God is important not to misunderstand. and everyone here is working out or has worked out what an “accurate” description is for them personally, based on their own very real experiences. One of our core paradigms here is that there is no one true, universal answer for lots of things when theory has to yield to experience. How God works with individuals is a classic example of that concept.
Curtis wrote:and everyone here is working out or has worked out what an “accurate” description is for them personally, based on their own very real experiences.
One of our core paradigms here is that there is no one true, universal answer for lots of things when theory has to yield to experience. How God works with individuals is a classic example of that concept.
Yes, Curtis.
My experiences have been quite different from your, sctthomas, and in particular related to tithing. OT stories? Just that, stories, which I see as much more symbolic than real. That doesn’t make them bad, but we don’t necessarily have to believe Moses literally parted the Red Sea or that Noah collected two (or seven) of every species on earth to believe in a God who loves us. I do believe God loves his children, and for just as many instances where it appears God may have intervened we can find examples of where he did not (Holocaust, for instance). There is as much evidence for a deist God as there is for the TBM view of God. That said, I will never detract from your view, or anyone else’s view, if you believe God does help you find your keys. I don’t believe he does that, but you are free to believe what you want and I will respect that even if I disagree or find it as ridiculous as magic.
I see those of use here like cookie dough. We roll out the cookie dough and use cutters to to make them all the same shape – but there is leftover dough in between the conforming-all-alike-shapes. It’s the same stuff, just not in the same shape because it wasn’t in the cut out. That’s who we are – the stuff between. We’re still good, just different.
Curtis wrote:and everyone here is working out or has worked out what an “accurate” description is for them personally, based on their own very real experiences.
One of our core paradigms here is that there is no one true, universal answer for lots of things when theory has to yield to experience. How God works with individuals is a classic example of that concept.
Brother Givens makes the case that there is sufficient evidence to support both faith and doubt. Enough so that faith must be a choice and always deal with the tension of doubt. I take it one further – because I am a believer in limited choice. I believe that our experiences, upbringing, genetics, brain chemistry, etc, place serious limitations on the options available for choice. We are free to choose within the remaining options available and even to push against our limitations but it will always be limited. So the choice to “believe” is one that might not be available to one in the same measure that it is to another.
I apologize if I came off a bit judgement with my comments. I respect the figurative interpretation of the bible. Not everyone has to believe in the same interpretation I do. I still enjoy being around everyone on this post and I enjoy our discussions and your point of view. I have to admit that it is nice to here converging points of view than just the regular one at Church. The most important thing though is that I hope your relationship with God is still strong if you believe in that. Do you guys believe in a personal relationship with God where he communicates with us and answers prayers. I feel like trust in God is built in a similiar manner to building trust in human relationship in that when he need help, and we ask for things that we know God can and will reasonbly do, he comes through for us. Has this been your experience with God or the God concept? Roy wrote:Curtis wrote:and everyone here is working out or has worked out what an “accurate” description is for them personally, based on their own very real experiences.
One of our core paradigms here is that there is no one true, universal answer for lots of things when theory has to yield to experience. How God works with individuals is a classic example of that concept.
Brother Givens makes the case that there is sufficient evidence to support both faith and doubt. Enough so that faith must be a choice and always deal with the tension of doubt. I take it one further – because I am a believer in limited choice. I believe that our experiences, upbringing, genetics, brain chemistry, etc, place serious limitations on the options available for choice. We are free to choose within the remaining options available and even to push against our limitations but it will always be limited. So the choice to “believe” is one that might not be available to one in the same measure that it is to another.
But givens premise is very flawed logically.
In order for their to be spiriting evidence in a coin flip model. That is a model of a yes or no.
It has to be higher then the statistical 50 % probability.
That means in order to have any evidence at all you must be past the point of statistical probability. Which in a coin flip model is 50%. Which means a minimum of 51% in order to achieve any evidence at all, let alone sufficient evidence.
At 51% there would be exactly 1% evidence for something. Which would be far from sufficient.
So being that it has been shown to not be over the statistical probability. Givens premise is outright flawed. Since is surmises incorrectly that there is sufficient evidence in this coin flip model or confirmation bias. Both of which show there isn’t any evidence for it since it can’t go past the statistical probability threshold.
scthomas34 wrote:I apologize if I came off a bit judgement with my comments. I respect the figurative interpretation of the bible. Not everyone has to believe in the same interpretation I do. I still enjoy being around everyone on this post and I enjoy our discussions and your point of view. I have to admit that it is nice to here converging points of view than just the regular one at Church. The most important thing though is that I hope your relationship with God is still strong if you believe in that. Do you guys believe in a personal relationship with God where he communicates with us and answers prayers. I feel like trust in God is built in a similiar manner to building trust in human relationship in that when he need help, and we ask for things that we know God can and will reasonbly do, he comes through for us. Has this been your experience with God or the God concept?
No offense taken, it’s pretty hard to offend me to begin with. I do have residual anxiety and angst (and an aversion) with church members sometimes, particularly those who spout the party line and “know” lots of things they really don’t know at all. I certainly don’t fault anyone for believing or even wanting to believe or for having any amount of faith. Knowing actually alludes to the idea that one doesn’t have faith and is beyond that step – and much of what we here people say they know in F&T meetings should really be worded differently.
To answer your question, and maybe this should be another thread but since I started this one it’s OK with me, no I do not believe in a personal relationship with God where he communicates with me or answers my prayers. I do understand that LDS doctrine, or at least common teaching, does espouse that idea and I used to believe it myself. I won’t discount the idea that some people might have such a relationship and that some prayers are answered. I can testify pretty assuredly that God does not answer all prayers and that many of the Sunday school reasons given for him not answering are simply excuses – and there are a myriad of them. My experience with God has not been that he will always give assistance, or even ever, when asked and needed and he has not come through for me. Does he answer some people’s prayers? I don’t really know that, but if you believe he answers your prayers, I believe you. You will not convince me he answers mine – and that’s not your job anyway, it’s his. As I have stated here and elsewhere on the forums, I believe in a deist version of God who will never interfere with the free agency of anyone and who has very little, if any, interaction with us. When asked in a TR interview if I have faith in and a testimony of God the Eternal Father I can honestly and faithfully answer yes, however.
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