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Early in the morning I typically roll over in bed and grab my smart phone and check the headlines at a few sites before actually getting out of bed. This morning the SLTrib had a lead article titled “Utah is No. 1 – for online pornography consumption”. The URL today is:
http://www.sltrib.com/ci_11821265 although I think they archive their articles for subscription after a few days and don’t expect this URL will last long.The article is a report of a Harvard study that checked each states per capita paid subscriptions to pornography sites. Utah was way out in the lead at 5.47/1000. Alaska was a distant second at 5.03/1000; Mississippi was third at 4.30/1000 and then you drop all the way down into the 3s/1000 to find a few other (also solidly Republican) states.
My first thought was that Utah ranked highest not in pornography consumption, but ranked highest in paid pornography subscriptions. Big difference. The rest of the world talks about the best free pornography sites openly and so they know where to go and look for free high quality porn. They don’t need to pay for it. Paying for it is for suckers who don’t talk with their friends about the subject.
I still think that is probably true, but soon came up with another reason.
My dear wife is a Mormon prude–very chaste and modest and prim and proper. She shuts the blinds every time she changes clothes in our second story bedroom looking across our deep yard and over the cemetery behind.
After my run, I gathered the kids for scripture and 12 year old daughter comes in a white v-neck tee-shirt without a bra on. Daughter has developed a bust in the last year–I’m no expert, but probably a B cup. It was colder in our room than daughter’s bed and her nipples were showing. I noticed, but didn’t care. Our oldest son is 6 years old–he didn’t notice.
Dear wife notices and immediately makes daughter put on a heavy baggy tee-shirt.
I think a couple of lessons were taught: to daughter–your body must remain hidden, it is secret and embarrassing and a cause for awkwardness and so forth; to six year old son–girls bodies are secret and hidden and you shouldn’t even see them through clothes, let alone without clothes.
It seems to me, and maybe I am way off base here, but I think maybe Utah has such a big problem with pornography is because all the Mormon girls are taught to hide their awkward bodies to the extreme–no bare shoulders, no bikinis, no showing your tummy no mater what, skirts to the knee at all times. Meanwhile the boys are never exposed to women in normal natural ways–seeing their mom or sister in a bra brushing their teeth or noticing nipples through tee-shirts. They get nothing to break them into normal interaction with the female form.
It reminds me that ZCMI sanded off all the nipples on all their mannequins.
Anyway, maybe there is a connection between our “modesty” and our pornography problem. Maybe if boys were raised with the idea that a woman’s body was a normal, natural and healthy thing with curves and shapes and bumps and so forth that are different and wonderful from men’s bodies. Maybe if a complete lack of guilt-free natural learning was going on it.
Personally, I think this is the most compelling post I’ve read about this survey, but I also think the biggest reason is simple demographics – as the Tribune article mentions. The study identifies one demographic factor that skews the results more than any other – and by a significant margin: the number of young men aged 15-24. As a percent of the overall population, Utah is FAR AND AWAY the leader in that group. The differences in the study are tiny from state to state, so the much larger percentage of 15-24 year old young men in Utah would skew the results enormously.
Also, while I believe porn is a real issue for the Church, I see the differences (barely 3 out of 1,000 households for all of the states) and realize that such a tiny difference might actually even out with the addition of even 1 or 2 more distributors. Even if it wouldn’t, that range is well within the effect of having so many more 15-24 year old males.
Finally, to classify this as a “Mormon problem” (since 58% of the state-wide population is LDS) completely misses two things:
1) Idaho is at the bottom of the list, with 22% LDS population – the second largest percent in the nation. That is an incredibly compelling fact;
2) The LDS population in Salt Lake County (where most of the data was collected, apparently) is significantly less than 50% LDS now. Take out the urban areas from which the study appears to have pulled its data, and Utah is over 90% LDS. Iow, the data came from the most heavily non-LDS part of Utah. I’m not saying the high rate is because non-Mormons are the only ones viewing it. That’s a stupid argument, and I’m not going to make it. I’m just saying that it appears that the LDS population of the study is not nearly as high a percentage as nearly all of the reports are making it seem – since all the ones I’ve seen mention the 58% Mormon figure.
Again, I believe porn is a real issue for the Church, and I really like your thoughts on this study, Bouvet, but I don’t read the study and come away with, “Mormons view porn more than anyone else.” I just don’t see that in the data.
Bouvet, I certainly don’t know how to interpret the study or make generalizations about Latter-day Saints. But your post does have some respectful and careful thoughts. I agree with you that it would seem that the natural framework of the nuclear family would be a good place for kids to develop a healthy and unassuming working understanding of general anatomical differences. The alternative may be, as you suggest, an unnaturally keen curiousity once the hormones begin to rage. Tom
Pornography is a symptom for problems in society, and I think you hit on one view of that Bouvet. I was a missionary in Germany, and they are much more free and comfortable with the human body there. They have nude advertising posters in clothing and beauty stores — right in the store window. Women sun bathe topless in public parks. I could go on and on. Alcohol consumption had similar trends. Beer is so ubiquitous in their culture, and the loosely-enforced drinking age is like 14 I think … anyway, I never saw teenagers going crazy trying to sneak booze for parties and all that. None of this stuff was a big deal. It was not rebellious and “cool” to drink. That’s what it seemed like. This article is all the talk in mormon circles this week. Yes, Utah is on the top of the list. But that seems to be about the end of it to me. Alaska was second. They were 10% less than Utah. Can we make the correlation that colder weather reduces the desire to purchase pornography? The article has this comment:
“Although Utah is headquarters for The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, Edelman found that regions where people regularly attend religious services are not statistically different from their counterparts in more secular regions. But users who do attend religious services tend to shift their adult entertainment sessions to other days of the week than the day of services. “
I am sorry for the way the post fades out at the end there–I was typing in bed and was fading out quickly and decided to just hit post instead of waiting until morning to revise. You all got the point. Thanks for your comments. Valoel wrote:Pornography is a symptom for problems in society, and I think you hit on one view of that Bouvet. I was a missionary in Germany, and they are much more free and comfortable with the human body there. They have nude advertising posters in clothing and beauty stores — right in the store window. Women sun bathe topless in public parks. I could go on and on. Alcohol consumption had similar trends. Beer is so ubiquitous in their culture, and the loosely-enforced drinking age is like 14 I think … anyway, I never saw teenagers going crazy trying to sneak booze for parties and all that. None of this stuff was a big deal. It was not rebellious and “cool” to drink. That’s what it seemed like.”
Our focus on chastity and modesty is, I believe, productive in the goal of getting kids on missions and married as virgins, but counterproductive in creating healthy functional sexual beings. We teach our kids that touching their girlfriend’s boobs while making out at the drive-in movie is the sin next to murder. This is just absolutely crazy and an abominable misreading of Alma 39. I could go on all day about this issue . . .
But hey, we probably have the highest percentage of virgins getting married than any other group–they might be too young (getting married to legalize their lust) and they have no idea how to please each other. We have our priorities.
Fwiw, I believe strongly that the priorities are correct – but the application of teaching the priorities gets screwed up horribly in a society that still is stuck so deeply in an apostate, Victorian mindset. I re-read my response. I think I may come across too loose on standards. I think pornography is a problem. It causes problems and damage to people. I think modesty, with the right attitude, is also a good thing. Like Bouvet pointed out, it is highly counter-productive to imbue all these things with fear and negativity. It’s not that standards are wrong, our emotional and spiritual attitude is what makes them lose their value. It really doesn’t help things when EVERYTHING is “second to murder,” or the idea that we get some un-washable taint condemning us to hell and failure. Fear is the enemy of love. God is love. Making these things full of fear makes them no longer godly and divine, a tool for spiritual progress.
Sex and sexuality are great! Just not so great at the wrong times (like as a child, or through objectification of another person). Our bodies are beautiful, no matter what shape they are. We are beautiful.
Wow, Valoel, if you can see beauty in the human body after being exposed to the ubiquitous German nudity you describe, more power to you. I saw plenty of that in the Canary Islands (topless 70+ yr old German women who hadn’t worn a bra since the late 1960s), and I thought my retinas were going to incinerate. Bouvet, perhaps your wife is taking things a little far. I’m not convinced that’s typical, though. I think in large families especially, you’re going to see stuff sometimes, and it’s really no big deal.
As to the porn study, it does seem to be all the talk today. I think Ray makes some excellent points about the demographics of Utah. Additionally, a lot of people move there because it’s cheaper than where they are moving from (e.g. the coast). Maybe they feel they have more disposable income.
Quote:I saw plenty of that in the Canary Islands (topless 70+ yr old German women who hadn’t worn a bra since the late 1960s), and I thought my retinas were going to incinerate.
Yeah, the conversations on FMH sometimes make me chuckle – since the nursing-without-any-covering advocates always assume we men WANT to see their breasts as they’re nursing. Some of us men want them covered in public specifically so we DON’T have to see the bloated or sagging milk bags. It’s not lust we’re trying to control; it’s the lurching of our stomachs.
I admit, there are some who need to cover up to avoid embarrassing the deacons as they pass the sacrament, but most of the ones who scream the loudest whenever breastfeeding is mentioned in a post . . . aren’t in that group.
đ Quote:I saw plenty of that in the Canary Islands (topless 70+ yr old German women who hadn’t worn a bra since the late 1960s), and I thought my retinas were going to incinerate.
Hahahahahahahaha! Good one.
Quote:Our focus on chastity and modesty is, I believe, productive in the goal of getting kids on missions and married as virgins, but counterproductive in creating healthy functional sexual beings.
I agree, Bouvet. And I think it’s dangerous. But here is a question I have been thinking about lately: If we teach kids more “positive” attitudes toward sexuality, will they be more likely to lose their virginity younger (i.e. before marriage)? Is it the FEAR ITSELF that is the primary motivating factor for kids to “behave” to whatever extent they do?
Fwiw, I just wrote the following in a comment on FMH: Quote:One of the best general summaries I ever heard of the male/female conflict said, essentially, the following:
In sexual intercourse, speaking strictly biologically, men are the ânaturalâ givers; women are the ânaturalâ receivers. Society conditions them to be the ânaturallyâ agressive, while society conditions women to be ânaturallyâ passive. Men can overcome restrictions upon marriage quite easily, since (from a strictly physiological standpoint) theyâre just target shooting – and giving in to their programmed aggressive default role. They rarely get hurt physically in the process, and they rarely feel violated or coerced. They also can be fulfilled physically quite quickly, which contributes to a âwham, bam, thank you, maâamâ mentality. Finally, what happens occurs outside themselves, so there isnât as much emotion invested in the whole thing.
Women, otoh, are forced to move out of their strictly receptive biological framework and passive social conditioning if they are to enjoy sexual activity to its fullest. They need to be able to initiate – to be aggressive – and they risk real physical and emotional hurt and harm when they do so. It often takes much longer to get revved up, and the internal nature of the experience makes it VERY personal and emotional. Itâs much easier to sit back and hope the man understands and is patient and waits to learn together – and that happens much less often than most men think.
Often in a new marriage, both husband and wife are excited about finally being able to have sex, but for the virgin man, the first few times often are quick and uncontrollable (and painless and physically fulfilling) – while for the virgin woman, those same first few times are too quick, too uncontrollable, painful and both physically and emotionally un-fulfilling. This often means the wife, while excited about the possibility of sex, often is not prepared for the experience – largely because the husband doesnât know enough about sex to âdo it rightâ for her. She ends up feeling âattackedâ – and wondering if he really only married her so he could have sex.
If I were teaching a marriage prep class, I would go over all of this in one of the lessons – with some pretty clear and unambiguous advice about reading some âmanualsâ before marriage – or, if that would be objectionable to some, abstaining for a week after marriage to get the study done first. Itâs worth an extra few days of waiting, imo, to get it right from the beginning – or at least as right as it can be at the beginning.
Ok here it goes this is a hang up I have
I am a convert to the church so have experienced a LOT before marriage
I had sex (and quite a bit of it) before i joined the church – and although I understand now that sex is best kept in a marriage – there are some parts of the law of chastity that I think personally make things more difficult in a married couples sex life
masturbation is one of those things – or at least how much it is frowned upon
As someone struggling in faith and someone who is trying to make sense of it all I am trying to understand where others might come from in their opinions
do you think that it is dirty and just sinful
or do you have any other thoughts?
Growing up I remember my mom constantly badgering me about modesty. I grew up in an mostly LDS community and usually was considered to be overly modest. If I wore a shirt that even showed some of my curves I was told that I was immodest. I felt like I was suppose to hide my body. I now where mostly what I want and still try to stay modest but I don’t want to badger my daughter to the point where she feels like her body is evil or something. As for the Utah study, I noticed it only deals with online pornography. In other places, men probably get a lot of their fulfillment from topless bars or places like that. There is not as many places it seems in Utah like that and men are probably more likely to get caught. (This can also include women too.) I wonder if there is a higher percentage of online users because they are less likely to get caught.
I have a big issue with pornography as a woman. I saw a CNN.com article just about a week ago showing a study that indicated that when men saw women in bikinis or in a sexualized way, the part of their brain that lit up was the part that is used when working with tools. They were also more likely to talk in a first person language like “I push” “I use”. When they see women fully dressed they talk in third person language like “She walks” “She uses”. It also seems like many women feel the need to act stupid and sexual to get a guys attention. I see with with friends all of the time. Plus, having a dh who watches porn it is really hard to feel like he wants me and not just using me after viewing women who are way better looking that I will ever be. It’s hard to feel like you are not enough.
I’m all for enjoying ones self sexually, I just think people need to think about what they are doing first.
Personally, I think masturbation should be mentioned in the general standards and simply not emphasized anywhere else – especially in interviews. That’s my two cents’ worth.
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