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Bro. Reel, thank you for this interview. I think the Givens Q & A’s with you and other interviewers are speaking more and more to my concerns as they go along. I’m glad I listened. A couple of things that I paid close attention to: Terryl says that we aren’t “attentive to the real question underlying our perplexity.” In his example (not mine), the question isn’t about polygamy and spiritual coercion, but what the proper expectations of a prophet should be, and that rather than messing around in the leaves and branches, we should get down to the root. The questions of “whether or not Joseph was always exactly upright and acted in appropriate ways is irrelevant ultimately to my faith in the doctrines of the restoration.” He says you don’t join a faith because of the man; you join for the message. Is he saying polygamy is the man?
Fiona talked in general terms about the new era we’re in, and the church being on a faith journey. “It’s going to be painful for many people to let go of cherished truths – things which one has been raised with – but we all have to let go. We all have to leave the Garden of Eden at one point or another. It’s painful and wrenching, but that’s faith journey.”
I LOVED Terryl Givens’ quote from Juanita Brooks’ father at about 24:00. TG then says that “we all have power to nudge our culture in one direction of another.”
For me, the bottom-line question of the interview was, “Is there a place for the genuine me?” (In the church.) Fiona gave the example of herself suggesting that people might want to go to Catholic mass to prepare for the temple. She seemed to say that it raised some eyebrows, not all agreed, etc., but because she is a serving, loving ward member with “street cred,” it was not contentious. She said that “most of our meetings are flat because they are inauthentic. The Spirit can only bear testimony to the truth of what is being said. It’s only when we bear authentic testimony… – when the real self is speaking – only then can the Spirit testify to the truth of what is being said.” I’m rarely my genuine self at church anymore, but I
dotry to take the Givenses’ advice to heart. mackay11 wrote:Follow-up to previous.
I took issue with the idea that some of us had a spiritual gift to believe and some of us do not.
That’s almost like saying some of us having the gift of being able to breathe and some do not.
Why would God arbitrarily assign some people the gift of being able to believe and others not. Why happened to their idea of having to chose to believe from The God who weeps.
It seems strange that they are calling for nuance and for symbolic readings of scripture and yet Fiona wanted to apply that one so literally.
I used to believe. I no longer do. Is that because I chose which evidence I was most persuaded by or because God randomly took away my spiritual gift of being able to believe?
You will like my interview that releases in a few months with a Atheist TBM. He touches on the points you raise
Ann wrote:Bro. Reel, thank you for this interview. I think the Givens Q & A’s with you and other interviewers are speaking more and more to my concerns as they go along. I’m glad I listened. A couple of things that I paid close attention to:
Terryl says that we aren’t “attentive to the real question underlying our perplexity.” In his example (not mine), the question isn’t about polygamy and spiritual coercion, but what the proper expectations of a prophet should be, and that rather than messing around in the leaves and branches, we should get down to the root. The questions of “whether or not Joseph was always exactly upright and acted in appropriate ways is irrelevant ultimately to my faith in the doctrines of the restoration.” He says you don’t join a faith because of the man; you join for the message. Is he saying polygamy is the man?
Fiona talked in general terms about the new era we’re in, and the church being on a faith journey. “It’s going to be painful for many people to let go of cherished truths – things which one has been raised with – but we all have to let go. We all have to leave the Garden of Eden at one point or another. It’s painful and wrenching, but that’s faith journey.”
I LOVED Terryl Givens’ quote from Juanita Brooks’ father at about 24:00. TG then says that “we all have power to nudge our culture in one direction of another.”
For me, the bottom-line question of the interview was, “Is there a place for the genuine me?” (In the church.) Fiona gave the example of herself suggesting that people might want to go to Catholic mass to prepare for the temple. She seemed to say that it raised some eyebrows, not all agreed, etc., but because she is a serving, loving ward member with “street cred,” it was not contentious. She said that “most of our meetings are flat because they are inauthentic. The Spirit can only bear testimony to the truth of what is being said. It’s only when we bear authentic testimony… – when the real self is speaking – only then can the Spirit testify to the truth of what is being said.” I’m rarely my genuine self at church anymore, but I
dotry to take the Givenses’ advice to heart. Thanks for the insight and feedback
[img]http://www.mormondiscussionpodcast.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/06/WendyMontgomeryFam.jpg [/img] http://mormondiscussionpodcast.orghttp://mormondiscussionpodcast.org” class=”bbcode_url”> Today we sit down with Wendy Montgomery who tells the story of her son Jordan, who came out as Gay in 2012 as a young teenager. She talks about her experience in the Church, how she hold out hope and leads with faith. It is an inspiring story of how to handle big challenges and to hold one’s faith.
WENDY MONTGOMERY was born and raised in Southern California. She has always been a member of the LDS Church. She and her husband Tom Montgomery were married in the Los Angeles Temple in 1995. They had 5 children in 7 years – not recommended. They found out in January of 2012 that their oldest son (13 years old at the time) was gay. It has at times been unbearably painful. But it has also been an enlightening, spiritual and joyful journey. Wendy has many new heroes, many of which are writers on this blog. She and her husband and children live in Central California. Wendy is a voracious reader and is currently working on her fictional degree in Gay Mormon Studies.
http://www.theculturalhallpodcast.com/2014/03/wendy-montgomery-ep-120-the-cultural-hall/ http://www.mormonmentalhealth.org/023-advocating-for-your-gay-mormon-family-member/ 
[img]http://www.mormondiscussionpodcast.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/08/GracePic2.jpg [/img] http://www.mormondiscussionpodcast.org/2014/10/premium-grace-and-its-changing-power/ ” class=”bbcode_url”> http://www.mormondiscussionpodcast.org/2014/10/premium-grace-and-its-changing-power/ Today I share the presentation I did in the Indianapolis IN YSA Conference. My subject was Grace and it’s changing power in our lives. Included is a 15 minute soundbite from Brad Wilcox’s talk “His Grace is Sufficient”
I have an interview this tuesday with someone who can speak well the the issues between Mormonism and Masonry and I wondered if you guys might again help me collaborate the most pressing questions. My main question is how we reconcile the quotes from early leaders that Joseph had told them that Masonry was a corrupted form of ancient christian worship. It seems the apologists wants it both ways. How can joseph both be borrowing an unconnected mode of ritual and also that ritual be a corrupted ancient form of Christian worship dating abck to ancient prophets and christian ritual?
Thanks guys. I hope you find this helpful in some way and I so appreciate your willingness to help me strike at the heart of these matters!
DB, I would think there could be questions around what people in the 1800s thought Masonry was vs. what we know now, and how that also relates to what people in the 1800s thought about the restorationist movement and what was happening. Masonry doesn’t go back to ancient times, it doesn’t go back beyond the 1400s, right? It wasn’t corrupted and have partial truths that needed to be restored by Joseph.
But it is interesting that Joseph was working under those assumptions at the time, assumptions that we now have greater knowledge of.
Question for the podcast: Do masons in current day 2014 know and accept it’s limited origins, or do some still believe Hiram Abiff was a real person?
I have a question. I often read where Joseph Smith was rogue in connecting with Masonry (no temple connection here), because Masonry was on the outs as an American institution in the 1800’s. But Joseph joined, embraced, then borrowed from it. This is often used to prove Josephs Universalism, etc. However, now we have movies like National Treasure and Dan Brown books that paint it in this “Oh so cool and American light.”
Which is it, cool or not? Was Joseph roguish or not? And is the temple really that much connected to it anymore?
There seems to be quite a bit of evidence Masonry was very common. I don’t think Joseph was rogue-ish at all (in regards to being a Mason). He was introduced to it by Hyrum while in New York, I believe, but most members of the priesthood early on were also Masons, especially when you see Nauvoo being established and so many in Nauvoo were also Masons and the city had masonic halls and most people who ran for office for government has masonic ties. Most of the founding fathers were Masons. It was common enough that even members of the mob who attacked Carthage Jail and killed the prophet were also masons, and Joseph’s dying call while being shot was a Masonic call for brotherhood…for which the mob members should have come to their Masonic brother’s aid, an important Masonic practice…and yet they did not.
There was a bit of a backlash against masonry after some political conspiracies were exposed in the NorthEast in the late 1820s, and some started distancing themselves from Freemasonry because of public image was tarnished a bit. But when people were settling Nauvoo, there were hundreds of Masons that wanted to build halls and lodges, which were not coming from Joseph pushing it, but just the movement of the day.
Quote:James Adams, a Mormon convert and probate judge in Springfield, encouraged Mormon Masons to apply [for new lodges]. In June 1841, they petitioned for sponsorship and received it from Abraham Jonas, a Jewish Mason and Grand Master of the Grand Lodge of Illinois. Jonas’s belief in equality and brotherhood disposed him to befriend the Saints, and he was also seeking support in his run for the state legislature. Jonas formed the Mormons into a temporary lodge of Ancient York Masons with George Miller as “Worshipful Master” and Hyrum Smith as “Senior Warden.” The new lodge quickly received membership applications from forty-one Mormons including Joseph, Sydney Rigdon, and five of the Twelve Apostles.”
-Bushman,
Rough Stone Rolling, p.449 Regarding the temple ties…while there are clear similarities in the ritualistic styles…the ceremonies are quite different in content and purpose. I would compare it to the Duty to God program of the church and the scouting program. Scouts came first, and DTG may have borrowed ideas of advancements and things to check off in different areas, but the content is different and the purposes are different (although rooted in helping YM grow in good works).
My main question, that has already been asked by someone earlier in this thread, is how we accept JS saying that he was restoring an ancient thing when all current evidence points toward masonry not being an ancient thing (not that ancient anyway). It’s actually the exact same question I have with the book of Abraham. JS said one thing. But there is evidence strongly supporting a very different explanation/interpretation. How do we NOT conclude that JS was simply making things up, with or without him knowing it. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Good questions, Bear. The Church’s response is:
Quote:The book of Abraham imparts profound truths about the nature of God, His relationship to us as His children, and the purpose of this mortal life. The truth of the book of Abraham is ultimately found through careful study of its teachings, sincere prayer, and the confirmation of the Spirit.
Regardless of the historical events around it, has it revealed profound truths?
It is what each of us have to determine with our faith. Can we find value in it, even if it wasn’t what we thought it was?
Don’t wanna threadhack DB’s podcast thread, but perhaps this is a question that the Masonic podcast can address…how do Masons reconcile the value of their practices when modern history has seemed to debunk the myths and revealed the secrets? Because that could cross over to apply to mormons.
I also would like to hear how Masons think the fraternity works when there are various religions all working for good in Masonic practice. In other words, it doesn’t matter what religion they come from, they all are able to make it work to do good. They believe in a higher power but don’t need to define it. Do masons see that as a strength or weakness of accomplishing their mission? I personally like the example it shows to religions.
[img]http://www.mormondiscussionpodcast.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/06/CostOfDiscipleship.jpg [/img] http://www.mormondiscussionpodcast.org/2014/11/798/http://www.mormondiscussionpodcast.org/2014/11/798/” class=”bbcode_url”> To be a Disciple of Christ is more than to follow him. It is more than to be inclusive, to be kind, to be compassionate. It also has a cost. It is uncomfortable. It requires us to be challenged and to be pushed to our limits. Today we talk about that cost and why the Church, the gospel, and the Savior for that matter can not always be comfortable and only ask us to do things that make sense.
Can’t wait to listen to this. As I read the description I felt like it was addressing my weariness and pain. Thanks. I may just read the caption over and over without the podcast. Sincerely I will listen to the podcast. mom3 wrote:Can’t wait to listen to this. As I read the description I felt like it was addressing my weariness and pain. Thanks. I may just read the caption over and over without the podcast. Sincerely I will listen to the podcast.
Let me know what you think after listening as It may rub some wrong who don’t listen to much of what I do.
[img]http://www.mormondiscussionpodcast.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/10/RussellMcConkie.jpg [/img] http://www.mormondiscussionpodcast.org/2014/11/russell-mcconkie/ ” class=”bbcode_url”> http://www.mormondiscussionpodcast.org/2014/11/russell-mcconkie/ Russell McConkie: Genesis Evolution
Today Guest Host Jon Young sits down with LDS author Russell McConkie and discuss his book “Genesis Evolution. Do science and religion really have to be at odds with each other? Are they compatible? Does there really need to be a debate about evolution vs. God? What if Moses actually understood the science behind the earth’s history, and the language of God in the Bible actually tells the same story as any geology textbook?
Genesis Evolution makes that case. The geological history of the earth is told in a way that any scientist would agree, and is placed side-by-side with the first chapter of Genesis. Told in a manner that you don’t have to be a scientist to understand, you’ll be able to see how the pieces of science and religion fit nicely together.
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