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If Mormonism today is universal…why did church0333 get released from HC for preaching that message? Fair question?
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Is the church in apostasy and in need of repentance? Please don’t just come back with the usual “put the blame on the accused and local leaders.”
I’m tired off that apolegetic.
Whose fault is it that church0333 got released?
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Sorry to put you in this defensive position Ray, as the lone die-hard defender here, but this really is a sad day for stayLDS. God I hate being right.
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cwald, fwiw, it’s really hard to offend me, but calling me a “die-hard defender” comes really close to doing so – just so you know. It’s the implications that bother me – implications that are as close to a “false witness” as you’ve ever come in relation to describing me. If I was a “die-hard defender”, this site wouldn’t be what it is. Quote:Is the church in apostasy and in need of repentance?
I think the Book of Mormon teaches in crystal clear terms that there always will be elements of apostasy in the Church right up to the very end, and all of our scriptures teach of the universal need for repentance – so, technically, the answer is, “Yes.” I think that conclusion is unavoidable, if considered comprehensively, given our scriptural canon. However, that is very different than a statement that “the Church is in apostasy and in need of repentance” – and
it’s really important, for many reasons, to avoid sweeping, generalized statements worded in such a way that misunderstanding is inevitable. That distinction is important here. I know you understand and believe in that distinction, so please keep it in mind and respect our mission.
Quote:If Mormonism today is universal…why did church0333 get released from HC for preaching that message?
He didn’t get released for preaching that message. It was other stuff that led to the release. That’s not nit-picking. It’s important.
Quote:Please don’t just come back with the usual “put the blame on the accused and local leaders.”
I’m not aware of anyone here who has “put the blame on (church0333).”
Quote:Whose fault is it that church0333 got released?
Ultimately, the members who complained to the Stake President, primarily, are at fault.
The Stake President is responsible for the actual release, but I can’t know if it was the best administrative decision or not, since I am not privy to exactly who and how many people complained and what would happen without the release. I don’t like the release, in principle, but I can’t condemn the Stake President for doing it.
The environment in the Church that leads to the complaints is a result of years of hardline pronouncements that haven’t lost their appeal yet, especially among the older generations, so the leaders who encouraged (and continue to encourage) that mentality also share fault. Many of the top leaders now do not share in the fault, as they are trying to change that aspect of our culture.
Having said all of that, as a general response, I would leave it up to church0333 to give the best answers to your questions, since he knows the actual situation FAR better than anyone else here.
Quote:Having said all of that, as a general response, I would leave it up to church0333 to give the best answers to your questions, since he knows the actual situation FAR better than anyone else here.
This much I can say. I will not be released until after I speak in two wards next week I think that there are too many HC on vacation and there isn’t enough time to have someone else fill the assignment. I also know that I took my assignment very seriously, I went to all the meetings and fill the assignments to the best of my ability. I never left anyone hanging. I did tell the SP that if he didn’t like the way my talks went that I would be okay if I was released and that I would trust his judgement and he did make a choice and I will learn to live with that. From my point of view it was a wrong choice and I would like to explain. First it give a message to those that complained, that they don’t have to put up with people that think differently than they do and all they have to do is call the leaders and no more different thoughts. The SP had either read or heard the talks that caused the complaints and if he found something he felt strongly about he could have discussed it with me or if he agreed he could have told the complainers that he agreed with the talks or at least said Brother Church0333 talk was about love and acceptance and his intentions were good. I don’t know what he did say for sure, so it could be he did say something along that line. Secondly, by releasing me it gives one less voice to these that are struggling. I have had feedback from every talk from those that are struggling. I don’t believe for one second that my talks changed anyone life or caused someone not to stop going to church but I do believe that it got people thinking and feeling at least in the short term. Thirdly, it tells me that all the talk of reaching out to the one is more lip service than anything else. I told the SP that we as a stake will not get many back until we as a stake make some changes, If people do return to church with the same closed minded, judgement passing, and pushing every one to be exactly the same members as when they went inactive then they will get about the same results and if the church can’t be honest and trusting with their members whether new or old about our history then we will be loosing more members every year. I truly believe that but at that point I am sure he felt I was an apostate and was glad to see me go. All the other meetings I had with him he ended the meeting by saying how much he loved and appreciated me and all I do but todays meeting ended with “we will have a formal set down to discuss your release after your talks next week.”
Having said all that, I don’t think fault can squarely be put on any shoulders. People don’t like to be challenged, and that applies to the top leader and all the way down. I feel strongly about how I see things and so does others in my stake. I would be find to let other believe as much or as little as they want but those with more power will use that power to stop others and that is what is happening right now because they have the backing of the majority of the people and their dollars. I am actually okay with that system as long as still have some kind of a voice. Five years ago I would never have guessed that I would be in a situation like this. Were the founding fathers or Martin Luther traders or heros? I guess it depends on who come out on the top in the long run.
cwald wrote:If Mormonism today is universal…why did church0333 get released from HC for preaching that message?
Fair question?
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Yes, a very fair question. I’m gutted church got released too.
Why did he get released? Scared, closed minded bigots who can’t see past their one-dimensional view of the world that is squashed so flat against their faces it’s covering their eyes but, sadly, not the blathering mouths.
Like I said, Mormonism
if understoodis Universalism. The problem is that many don’t understand it. They revel in their self-righteous celebration of certainty that they can only cement by convincing themselves that “being right where I stand must mean that all others are wrong where they stand.” This idea of Mormon – Universalism is new. It is not a slant the church has ever publicly taken. Whether it was Joseph’s intent or not, it took some seekers to find it and bring it to light. I believe that process has taken longer than we know. For me it’s important to know that, because when I feel frustrated by the lack of embracing of this ideal, I can step back and wonder what people like Bushman and Givens have been working on for a decade or more. (If anyone wants details on that let me know) I have lived in the church all my life, and whether members like it or not, the church changes. Different philosophies and idealogies come in and the “top thing” changes. My best example comes from my grandmother. Her family was pioneer stock, crossed the plains, settled a town the Brigham sent them to establish, was a lifelong farmer. One day after Relief Society, she shook her head and said,”What is all this talk about goals?” – That was in the early 80’s.
Goals became a buzz theme, everywhere goals were the thing. Wards had goals, YW and YM had goals, etc. For a farmer, there is no goal. You plant, you tend, you harvest, you sell. Sure enough looking back at old General Conference talks, and lesson manuals from her era – goals were never even mentioned. It was a trend, brought over from American Society and incorporated. There are many other examples of this from cultural things like Road Shows to Trek, to doctrines that become the thing.
The move to Universalism as a Mormon trait, may or may not take off, but enough people are reading the God That Weeps, enough people attend the BYU seminars that Givens and Bushman put on, and the Maxwell institute is their new larger vehicle. It is probable that the watershed will overflow and a new line of thinking will emerge. I believe in the long run church033 will have been apart of it. For me I hope it does happen, I see it as a healing balm we need on both sides of the LDS discussion.
mom3 wrote:The move to Universalism as a Mormon trait, may or may not take off, but enough people are reading the God That Weeps, enough people attend the BYU seminars that Givens and Bushman put on, and the Maxwell institute is their new larger vehicle. It is probable that the watershed will overflow and a new line of thinking will emerge. I believe in the long run church033 will have been apart of it. For me I hope it does happen, I see it as a healing balm we need on both sides of the LDS discussion.
Yes, I would like more details of the works of Bushman and Givens. I have said before that as frustrating as the homegrown and campy elements of our religion were (think stories of visiting 3 nephites) – at least that also provided for a sort of grassroots growth and change in the church. Correlation has removed a large part of that, but in refining the message they have also tightened the top-down control.
Perhaps the Maxwell institute will become an avenue for adding reactability and organic growth to the system.
Roy wrote:Perhaps the Maxwell institute will become an avenue for adding reactability and organic growth to the system.
Hahahahahhaaahhaaaaa!
I don’t know if you are trying to be funny…but that is funny. The MI has been in existence to defend the church. Period. With Peterson, Midgley and Hamblin gone…hmmm, maybe something good will come out of it. But don’t hold your breath. The mission is still to defend the church. The only difference, is they no longer defend against the non member christians. For years now they focus on the apostate membership.
Old-Timer wrote:cwald, fwiw, it’s really hard to offend me, but calling me a “die-hard defender” comes really close to doing so – just so you know. It’s the implications that bother me – implications that are as close to a “false witness” as you’ve ever come in relation to describing me. If I was a “die-hard defender”, this site wouldn’t be what it is.
Quote:Is the church in apostasy and in need of repentance?
I think the Book of Mormon teaches in crystal clear terms that there always will be elements of apostasy in the Church right up to the very end, and all of our scriptures teach of the universal need for repentance – so, technically, the answer is, “Yes.” I think that conclusion is unavoidable, if considered comprehensively, given our scriptural canon. However, that is very different than a statement that “the Church is in apostasy and in need of repentance” – and
it’s really important, for many reasons, to avoid sweeping, generalized statements worded in such a way that misunderstanding is inevitable. That distinction is important here. I know you understand and believe in that distinction, so please keep it in mind and respect our mission.
Quote:If Mormonism today is universal…why did church0333 get released from HC for preaching that message?
He didn’t get released for preaching that message. It was other stuff that led to the release. That’s not nit-picking. It’s important.
Quote:Please don’t just come back with the usual “put the blame on the accused and local leaders.”
I’m not aware of anyone here who has “put the blame on (church0333).”
Quote:Whose fault is it that church0333 got released?
Ultimately, the members who complained to the Stake President, primarily, are at fault.
The Stake President is responsible for the actual release, but I can’t know if it was the best administrative decision or not, since I am not privy to exactly who and how many people complained and what would happen without the release. I don’t like the release, in principle, but I can’t condemn the Stake President for doing it.
The environment in the Church that leads to the complaints is a result of years of hardline pronouncements that haven’t lost their appeal yet, especially among the older generations, so the leaders who encouraged (and continue to encourage) that mentality also share fault. Many of the top leaders now do not share in the fault, as they are trying to change that aspect of our culture.
Having said all of that, as a general response, I would leave it up to church0333 to give the best answers to your questions, since he knows the actual situation FAR better than anyone else here.
You see. This is why I stated what i did…because I knew you (Ray) would have to spend all this time responding. It was not meant as a personal attack. Simple I knew you would be the only one who would spend all the time responding to my post. Why? Because you believe in the church I’m guessing and will defend it. You want it to succeed. Got it.
But, since I have already hurt your feelings…Im going to go ahead and add one more thing…Ray, you and I don’t belong to the same church. This church that you and others talk about here, does not exist. It is a fantasy in your minds. It is the church that you want to belong to. I do too. it would be an awesome church. But it does not exist. Perhaps, Ray, and folks like Church0333 can fix it and in time the church will evolve. I can’t wait for that to happen. That is why I still “try” to maintain the mission of this website, and why I have so much respect for you, and all the others here who are still in trying to make difference. I believe in that ideal and mission, I wish nothing but success.
But until that happens. I hate being right. I am right today, its not an opinion. The events of church0333 validate everything I said.
Quote:Ultimately, the members who complained to the Stake President, primarily, are at fault.
No. They are not.
We just heard that the 14 Fs got read over the podium by a HC in another ward just this week. The church could have repudiated this talk and this kind of doctrine and culture three years ago. Please people, don’t blame the members. If the prophets don’t like what is being said and don’t agree with the culture that talks like the 14 Fs build, they need to say so and get that stuff out of the manuals.
I don’t blame church0333’s Stake President one bit for what happened. He is merely doing what the church has set the culture up to do.
Annnnnd, after reading my last four/five posts, I better take a break from the staylds board, as I am wount to do from time to time. Sent from my SCH-I535 using Tapatalk 2
cwald wrote:Annnnnd, after reading my last four/five posts, I better take a break from the staylds board, as I am wount to do from time to time.
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Please don’t. The board would get pretty one dimensional if we started making people feel unwelcome based on personal perspectives. I appreciate your contributions.
I also love a lively debate and since we never get them at church….. And I don’t think Ray or Cwald or many others here are too sensitive I hope we can continue. cwald wrote:…you and I don’t belong to the same church. This church that you and others talk about here, does not exist. It is a fantasy in your minds. It is the church that you want to belong to. I do too. it would be an awesome church. But it does not exist.
This, I fear, is one of the most accurate comments of the thread.
Ray and a few others may be lucky to be in a ward/stake with moderate leaders.
The Mormonism I read here and elsewhere in the week is very different from the Mormonism that’s preached from my local pulpit on a Sunday.
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