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Is the Book of Mormon an historical text dating back 1000s of years? I still hope so, but I increasingly think it might not be. I’ve recently bought the John Sorenson book, “Mormon’s Codex.”
I’m someone currently on the fence of possibility. I’ve not concluded either way as to whether it is a solely 19th work or a translation. I’ve read a lot of reasons why the BoM is modern and having read people (including on this forum) who say that an ancient origin is not viable and that there’s no evidence for the BoM. As such, I decided to read what is being called by some as the very best evidence available in favour of an ancient setting. Givens and Bushman have both endorsed it.
I know very little about mesoamerican history so won’t know about the accuracy of the digs and conclusions there. But I’ve read the BoM enough to see whether it’s a reasonable comparison.
There’s no real structure to this. Just a place for me to share my thoughts as I work through it. Feel free to ask questions or join the discussion of whether Mesoamerica is the setting for the BoM.
Great idea Mackay! I look forward to more updates.
For me, I assume that if there were compelling reasons to ground the BOM in archeology and anthropology, then it would have been done already.
When I hear that the ultimate evidence is spiritual in nature – this tells me that the book is not confirmable by other methods.
Nevertheless, I am interested in hearing what you discover.
I think that the church has poured a lot of time and money already in trying to prove that there is some evidence of the BoM and they came up with nothing so far but as you say maybe there is hope. I think the BofM poses a challenge to the reader that is very interesting. Its credibility is tied to human-beings being able to encounter the heavenly beings depicted in it and these beings demonstrating to the reader that these plates or things it depicts have a basis in fact. I think barring that, it should be discounted as purely a work of fiction. The reason I have such a dim view of the BofM is the narrative is ONLY possible if these beings manifested themselves to human-beings in the past and taught them how to build ships to come to the Americas. It is also clear these beings removed some key evidence of the veracity of the BofM like the gold-plates. I find it far-fetched that JS would have lost control of these plates if these beings deemed it should not be so (and that is why they took them). It is far more likely that he made up the whole story, or they were removed as a test (and the provision against showing them was also a test). Anyway, I don’t really believe in the BofM myself at this time. I do consider it inspired and am willing to hold open the possibility that some of the events depicted in it are actually factual. However, I have almost no evidence to-date that it is anything other than a creative work of fiction (inspired or not). I am more interested in exploring the challenge presented to the reader of the BofM. I would like these beings to appear to me and demonstrate to me that I am wrong by showing me the plates. And I believe that if the BofM is true, that is something that must happen for each of us to accept it as factual (and would explain why they were taken away after the translation). I think it is also a necessary step in coming to know the Lord and truly grasp the gospel.
Tobin, I like the fact that we can disagree about some things strongly and still get along. 
:thumbup: One dependency of a Mesoamerica (MA) model is for the Jaredites/Nephites/Mulekites to not be the sole American inhabitants. In fact, for Sorensen, even the Jaredites were not the first inhabitants. He suggests that even in 2800 BC there was an indigenous population which the Jaredites mingled with. P.30 If the Book of Mormon is historical then a pre populated continent makes more sense than the empty continent approach, but it also seems to contradict what Joseph Smith and several leaders since have said about the origins of the natives. The Wentworth Letter makes it appear that Joseph, at the time, thought it was empty when each BoM group arrived.
Does that matter if Joseph got it wrong? Not to me, but I can understand it would be an issue for people who consider Joseph to need to be infallible prophetically.
Oh, I think JS and others were very mistaken on that point (among others). Not only that, but IF the BofM has a basis in fact, the Jaredite/Lehite civilizations had to have been very minor players on the American continent. Otherwise, I think we would have found them by now and indications of their civilization and technology. Tobin wrote:Oh, I think JS and others were very mistaken on that point (among others). Not only that, but IF the BofM has a basis in fact, the Jaredite/Lehite civilizations had to have been very minor players on the American continent. Otherwise, I think we would have found them by now and indications of their civilization and technology.
I agree. If the BoM is historical then it was a Hebrew parental spiritual commentary in the context of a non-Hebrew culture.
The only real problem I have with the BOM historical or not is that so many current leaders travel to South America, New Zealand etc. and boldly and proudly proclaim they are ALL Lamanites and totally destroy all their ancestral routes from there various origins. We so foundry talk about our ancestral and connecting to them. It disillusions me why we would rip Apart someone’s real ancestral routes that can and have been traveled back to replace it with something to support our book.
Apart from that historical or not I find it useful and joyful in much of it. But horrendous in disconnecting people from there real ancestors. My wife has a clear strong Asian background, but is told it really is Hebrew(lamanite).
She will never accept her Asian ancestors because she was told she is a lamanite.
It’s sad to me.
If we could ditch this concept and not attach it to the BOM it would be worlds better.
Quote:Does that matter if Joseph got it wrong?
Nope, especially when the words of the Book of Mormon itself don’t support an empty continent belief or an entire continent belief. Both of those ideas support the belief that Joseph and others didn’t understand the Book of Mormon very well as a historical record and, therefore, their assumptions were simply that – assumptions. I don’t believe Joseph got an in-depth tutorial on Book of Mormon history, so I’m totally fine with him not understanding it very well.
I’ve said this in other places, but the Book of Mormon is a fascinating text when all of the former assumptions are discarded, and when it is read simply for what actually is written in it.
The absence of gold plates today and in church history runs contrary to my hope for what God is like. Wanting us to believe in the face of so much evidence to the contrary, while simultaneously removing the biggest piece of evidence makes God seem deceptive and even a little passive-aggressive. Moroni took the plates away. I was always embarrassed to tell this to investigators as a missionary.
Joseph didn’t actually use the plates in the translation process. There are numerous accounts of him translating with the plates in another room or otherwise not present, by means of a seer stone, but not a single one of him translating directly from the plates. If he didn’t need them to translate them, why we’re they even given to him at all?
We have the testimony of three witnesses, and of eight witnesses, but there are glaring problems with those for anyone who does an hour of research on Google on that topic.
If nobody saw them, and they weren’t used in translation, it seems more likely to me that the BoM is an impressive narrative, but not historical.
Given the early saints barely read the Book of Mormon after their initial conversions it’s no wonder they got so many assumptions wrong. Whoever wrote the book it simply doesn’t fit a hemispheric model. Even if a ‘limited geography’ seems a recent innovation in apologetics, it’s also the one that fits the text.
Sorenson proposes that the Nephite history spans a geography, at most, of 600 miles long.
Megatherium wrote:The absence of gold plates today and in church history runs contrary to my hope for what God is like. Wanting us to believe in the face of so much evidence to the contrary, while simultaneously removing the biggest piece of evidence makes God seem deceptive and even a little passive-aggressive.
I very much doubt that is God’s intent.
Megatherium wrote:Moroni took the plates away. I was always embarrassed to tell this to investigators as a missionary.
Yes, very curious that don’t you think?
Megatherium wrote:Joseph didn’t actually use the plates in the translation process. There are numerous accounts of him translating with the plates in another room or otherwise not present, by means of a seer stone, but not a single one of him translating directly from the plates. If he didn’t need them to translate them, why we’re they even given to him at all?
Yes, that is very strange. So, either he made it up, or him having plates he couldn’t show anyone is rather pointless and cries out that God was testing him.
Megatherium wrote:We have the testimony of three witnesses, and of eight witnesses, but there are glaring problems with those for anyone who does an hour of research on Google on that topic.
And we don’t know them and have no reason to trust them, so their witness is worthless.
Megatherium wrote:If nobody saw them, and they weren’t used in translation, it seems more likely to me that the BoM is an impressive narrative, but not historical.
EXACTLY!!! This is where I have arrived. If God so easily took them and kept them away from those who would melt them down supposedly, then I fail to see any reason that those of us that want to earnestly know if this is true should not be shown them. I’m perfectly willing to accept the BofM is factual. I would like to speak with God about it and see the plates. I don’t demand he do at this moment either (that never works). But, I’m willing to wait and will continue to ask Lord to see them and know for myself. Otherwise, my position is the BofM is a fictional work. And I believe that is EXACLTY what God wants us to do. The plates were not just a test for JS – they are also a test for us.
How someone sees scriptures, of any kind and from any religious tradition, is a personal choice. I am fine with just about any view, as long as it doesn’t violate directly the two great commandments. Most views, in and of themselves, don’t do that, but nearly all views can be used to do that. In other words, I care a lot less about how someone views the Book of Mormon than I do about how they use their view in their interaction with others.
In this process I’m personally setting aside the Gold Plates/Translation process for a moment. My question, in this thread, is whether the text that was left behind is a template that can fit over anywhere in the Americas. Let’s say for a moment that the Gold plates were little more than a ‘crutch’ or inspiration. Maybe he didn’t translate the characters from them. Maybe they were solely created (in reality or in his imagination) to spur him on to have the confidence to dictate an inspired text. What do we do with the inspired text? How do we treat it?
I’ve been reading about Mormon’s Map. There’s a whole book about it. You can own if for $4:
http://www.amazon.com/Mormons-Map-John-L-Sorenson/dp/0934893489 Sorenson points out that the BoM text has a enough geographical markers to create a map from the text. This was initially first done back in the 1930s. He’s updated it further. There are geographic markers in the text that despite having read it multiple times, I’d never noticed. Have you considered, for example the ‘narrow neck’ and the ‘narrow pass’ – these are two separate things. In my own study I recently went through ever BoM reference to Mountain and Hill (that wasn’t an ‘Isaiah’ reference or similar). They are used in two very different ways and distinctly different features.
So the first thing to do is consider is whether it is viable that Joseph (if author) could have dictated a book that creates a very logical internal map. That cities/landmarks are always found in the same place relative to each other and the distances between them are consistent throughout the book. That doesn’t prove mesoamerica at all. But it’s one ‘tick’ in favour of it not being fabrication from Joseph’s imagination.
Here’s a copy of Mormon’s Map by John Sorenson:
http://www.mormondialogue.org/index.php?app=core&module=attach§ion=attach&attach_id=1583 This is from the book, but was shared by his son (who created the maps) on MDDB as an example of what they’re like.
What they go on to argue is that with this map you can overlay it over various models and locations and see whether the map that is created independent of any ‘earth’ assumptions can still fit. Apparently the map was created first before anyone had pinpointed a location and then Sorenson took the map and looked for a viable place to locate it. I’ll let you know more on that and how credible it is later.
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