- This topic is empty.
-
Posts
-
I might be able to accept your post DB, if “the church” wasn’t so arrogant. Perhaps if the leadership would get rid of this idea that “the church is perfect” and will never make mistakes, because Jesus is running the COB personally, things might improve.
I make decisions for a large group of people. And I make mistakes. However, unlike the church, I know I will make mistakes. I ADMIT when I make mistakes. I apologize when I make mistakes. And I’m held accountable when I make mistakes.
THAT DOES NOT HAPPEN IN THE LDS CHURCH.
Period. It does not happen.
Instead, when church members question or criticize the church, we get crap thrown at us like the 14″ Fundamentals of the Prophet” and the “Two lines of Communication,” and get called “sheep in wolves clothing.”
DB, this website about same sex attraction might be the closest thing the church has ever come to “admitting they made a mistake.” But they still never admit and say sorry. Why is that? And why won’t a Q15 say so, instead of coming from a PR website? The church issued a statement about blacks and the priesthood. It was nice…but THEY NEVER APOLOGIZED. NEVER ADMITTED THEY MADE MISTAKE.
Why will the church not apologize to those people it disciplined and excommunicated because of conflict with the blacks and the priesthood issue? Why will they not apologize for the harm that they caused so many marriages because of the Miracle of Forgiveness?
Why will the church not admit it was wrong in the 70’s to oppose ERA?
Why will they not accept responsibility for ANYTHING? But they continue to INSIST we don’t question them and just obey, even when we believe they are making a moral mistake.
I thank god for those folks who had the guts to stand up and question the leadership when the church has been on the wrong side of history.
At risk of speculating on something that may not happen, I couldn’t help but be encouraged that the Church may be preparing to address issues like crises of faith. Dono, but here is what the Deseret News said: Quote:“Here (in the church) more than anywhere, it’s important that there be love, that there be hope,” Elder Christofferson continued. “We want to be with you and work together.”
The website is part of an effort by the church “to teach and clarify the church’s positions” on various issues, said LDS spokesman Michael Purdy. “There are some aspects of our belief and practice that are simply not well understood,” Purdy continued, adding that
other issues will be addressed by the church in a similar fashion during the next few weeks.http://www.deseretnews.com/article/865568211/Stay-with-us-new-LDS-website-urges-gay-Mormons.html This web site is such a radical departure from the past when they called down hell, fire and brimstone on all who had differing opinions. Here’s hoping they can be as accepting of Fowler’s stage 3 and 4 folks.
dash1730 wrote:This web site is such a radical departure from the past when they called down hell, fire and brimstone on all who had differing opinions. Here’s hoping they can be as accepting of Fowler’s stage 3 and 4 folks.
Touche’
I know firsthand it is intended that”faith crisis” will be addressed specifically in the next GC by at least one speaker. Also in regards to apoligies, I do not think the church (institution) must apologize for anything as it is not the church that falls short but the indiviuals that make it up in leadership and general membership and all are admittedly imperfect, and I don’t think individual leaders can apoligize for past leaders (though one case below), but I do think individuals could better admit shortcomings when they occur, in fact I could do better at that too..
here are two that have occurred
Quote:Elder McConkie : We have read these passages and their associated passages for many years. We have seen what the words say and have said to ourselves, “Yes, it says that, but we must read out of it the taking of the gospel and the blessings of the temple to the Negro people, because they are denied certain things.” There are statements in our literature by the early Brethren which we have interpreted to mean that the Negroes would not receive the priesthood in mortality. I have said the same things, and people write me letters and say, “You said such and such, and how is it now that we do such and such?” And all I can say to that is that it is time disbelieving people repented and got in line and believed in a living, modern prophet. Forget everything that I have said, or what President Brigham Young or President George Q. Cannon or whomsoever has said in days past that is contrary to the present revelation. We spoke with a limited understanding and without the light and knowledge that now has come into the world.
We get our truth and our light line upon line and precept upon precept. We have now had added a new flood of intelligence and light on this particular subject, and it erases all the darkness and all the views and all the thoughts of the past. They don’t matter any more.
Quote:Elder Holland – when asked about the comments prior to 78′
One clear-cut position is that the folklore must never be perpetuated. … I have to concede to my earlier colleagues. … They, I’m sure, in their own way, were doing the best they knew to give shape to [the policy], to give context for it, to give even history to it. All I can say is however well intended the explanations were, I think almost all of them were inadequate and/or wrong. …
It probably would have been advantageous to say nothing, to say we just don’t know, and, [as] with many religious matters, whatever was being done was done on the basis of faith at that time. But some explanations were given and had been given for a lot of years. … At the very least, there should be no effort to perpetuate those efforts to explain why that doctrine existed. I think, to the extent that I know anything about it, as one of the newer and younger ones to come along, … we simply do not know why that practice, that policy, that doctrine was in place.
DBMormon wrote:Also in regards to apoligies, I do not think the church (institution) must apologize for anything as it is not the church that falls short but the indiviuals that make it up in leadership and general membership and all are admittedly imperfect,…
Yep. Thank you for making my point. The church is true, but the people aren’t.
Nice get out of jail free card. The church uses it all the time…and it’s manipulative and evil. The church will never lead the people astray. The prophets speak for god and we insist you believe us and obey. But oh by the way…if they do turn out to be wrong…they were just speaking as men. It’s the man’s fault…not the church’s.
Good luck figuring out when they are speaking as prophets of god and when they are speaking as men. It’s going to take decades after they speak to figure that one out…because they can’t even tell the difference when they speak as prophets or men.
Look away. Nothing to see here.
The quotes you gave: The one from BRM is INSULTING.
The one from Holland does use the word “wrong.” Thank you.
Neither of them are an apology.
Do you think it is possible for church membership to lobby for change successfully? If the COB received a million letters from the membership in regards to one issue, would it be enough to enact change? If 200,000 marched on Temple Square, would it be enough? Yes. I do think so. But the church and it’s faithful would never admit to it. It goes against the entire premise that God is running the church…not men. I actually think this is why the church has so much apostasy focus on outward ordinances and rules in in today. The people demand it. They want to be governed by the Scribes…and refuse to listen to the prophets who warn them about such things. The LDS church, like all churches, continue to “wander in the wilderness”
Reflexzero, I doubt you’d get 200 mormons to march on SLC, let alone 200,000! Besides, no, it’s more likely to be through gradual attitudinal change over time. DB, I for one would ask you to never apologise for your beliefs. One reason that I love this MB is it seems to embrace everyone whatever their belief. It has a different tone to most others in the ‘bloggernacle’.
As long as people remain respectful, which you always do, I’d never ask anyone to apologise for beliefs.
What’s COB? mackay11 wrote:What’s COB?
Church office building.
Well I don’t expect 200k people to show up to protest institutional toilet paper, it’s hypothetical, kind of like asking the priesthood to show up to help sister inactive to move. If people want changes, they need to be unified and do something about it. Everything else is mostly hot air and bickering over diverse issues.
True change requires changing hearts first and foremost, and personally I believe activism is counter productive to that process. It draws a line in the sand and shames people. That just causes them to turn on the ones drawing the line. Faithful Mormons who stood by their gay children and brave gay BYU students are the ones who changed hearts on this issue. That is my opinion. Change does sometimes come through external pressure, but by then the body count is high. i finally looked at the new website, and I agree it is a huge positive step. i had written elsewhere, this morning, how the church, for me, lost all moral legitimacy during prop 8. but what prop 8 demonstrated to me was a consistent behavior of the church being in the wrong: whether it was the kirtland antibank, the danites in missouri, the assassination attempt, polygyny, polyandry, destroying the expositor, adam-god, mountain meadows, death-on-the-spot, WoW, women, extortional tithing, blacks–all the while claiming prophetic infallibility. Not to raise all that, but wrong is wrong, and it will take a lot to make things right again, at least for me. to DBM’s point, we who were around when blacks couldn’t hold the priesthood didn’t object enough. I taught that principle as if it were true during my mission, and it corroded my soul, deeply. never again.
so after the surveys and focus groups taught the leadership that the church position on gays harmed everything, they needed to soften the position, and have done so. I applaud this. I support it. While a formal apology for past wrongs is in order, the new approach is better than nothing, and on the right path. Reasonable voices are beginning to prevail over the less charitable voices at the top, and this is a good thing.
Quote:In my mind I have a line where once you cross that you have gone from asking serious questions to questioning seriously. By that I mean, that for example let’s say God is ok with homosexual behavior and at some point plans to tell the leaders through revelation. Let’s also assume the Leaders are asking God and pleading for clarification, but the time is not right. Now while I may have personally come to the conclusion through study or prayer or hopefully both, that the current policy needs changed. And while it would be fair to ask the church, “Any chance we can revisit this? Any chance your wrong and God has new information? And by the way I disagree with your stance.” but then to give the benefit of the doubt that God is in charge and he will fix this in his time, and until then publicly, I will sustain the church’s policy and the brethren.
Rather than publicly saying they are wrong and second guessing why they won’t make the change or make bigger changes.
I am fine with this approach up until the moment that my child “comes out of the closet” to me. Then I believe the paradigm and cost/benefit analysis would shift sharply. I cannot say what I would do in that scenario, but I do hope that my actions in that situation would be the best position for the sake of my child (though I’m sure I would do so imperfectly). Until that moment, I have the luxury of patience.
I understand that the church must move slowly even if some people metaphorically die for lack of oxygen while holding their breath for speedy change. The church must maintain the big picture. My job is the care and wellbeing of my family. This only becomes a problem if I were asked to sacrifice the wellbeing of my family for the good of organizational loyalty. Luckily – I am not in that predicament.
What does that make me? That I’m less passionate about the suffering of others that are not “my own?” Heartless? Pragmatic? I’m not sure, but I am sure that it doesn’t make me superior to those that find themselves in different situations and with different ways of handling it. (not making any claims about anyone but myself)
I may have posted about this in here already, but during the movie Lincoln, I couldn’t help but think about all these issues that have been brought up in this feed. At one point in a debate someone says, ‘we cannot make equal what God has made unequal.’ There have been too many times that I have heard that as an excuse for racism, sexism, and other inequality in history-but even worse IN OUR CHURCH. If we don’t do something about it, if we don’t question, push the issue and make a ruckus, things will never change. All of us are capable of receiving to revelation and all of us have the light of Christ. If something feels wrong in my heart and mind, it would be a sin not to do everything in my power to change it. That said, in that same movie Abraham Lincoln tells one of the more radical racial activists that the only way to make changes and get things done is to take baby steps. While I don’t want to wait for things to shift a little at a time, I think that is the only way to get things done in a big organization.
I would love for our church accept homosexuality, give women the priesthood, give women access to all leadership positions, admit that the prophets are fallible, make single people able to hold high church callings, abolish garment wearing, change some of the things in the temple ordinances, ECT ECT. If I sent that list in to church headquarters they would laugh and throw it away. Pretty sure they wouldn’t even pray about it. So instead, I post things on my Facebook, I talk to people one at a time about the issues that I am adamant about, I forward interesting articles to friends and spread the knowledge and information as much as I can on a small scale. That is all I know how to do to make a difference, but from my observation that IS what makes the difference. When the church headquarters start feeling the shift in views of the membership that is when changes are made. Whether you believe that it is the church following societal changes or whether you believe that it is divine revelation, the revelation comes only after the movement from the people.
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.