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I’m still pretty new here and I have had a great time reading old threads. I did not want to thread jack, so I started a new thread about the Mountain Meadow Massacre. In another thread I read that people view the Massacre as one of the reasons they have trouble or doubt the church. The only reason I mention this is because I am trying to discover/educate myself on my own issues, I am not trying to be controversial.
I just want to know why this event bothers people to the point they doubt the church? Can’t human beings who are LDS still do horrible things and make mistakes? Why does that take away from the Divinity of the Church? Can’t prophets still make mistakes and be divine?
What bothers me is that when I got baptized I asked my Bishop about The Moutain Meadow Massacre and Blood Atonement because I saw a program I believe on PBS. My Bishop actually denied knowing what I was talking about. I find that very strange.
I find it troubling because it was a heinous act that shouldn’t have occurred – even as I understand very well the fear and paranoia (the war mentality) of the time that was “legitimate” in many ways. It doesn’t concern me that people made a terrible mistake as much as what it says about how even very good people can do very bad things when they turn off their consciences and simply follow orders. I don’t attribute it to the Church in any unique way, since things like that have happened far too frequently in far too many places and situations throughout history – but I certainly don’t absolve the Church from blame. I am saddened deeply, however, that it happened within my own tribe – and that it was blamed falsely on local Indians for so long. I haven’t seen any evidence that Brigham ordered it, and the overwhelming evidence indicates to me that he didn’t want it to occur, but there are lots of people who assume he did order it. I understand why that bothers those people terribly.
I’m very glad that the Church issued an official apology and recognition of the incorrect blame.
Finally, I wouldn’t be surprised at all if your Bishop was being completely honest in his response. Knowledge of things like this isn’t and has never been a condition of local leadership, especially when the official version was so wrong for so long.
Old-Timer wrote:I find it troubling because it was a heinous act that shouldn’t have occurred – even as I understand very well the fear and paranoia (the war mentality) of the time that was “legitimate” in many ways. It doesn’t concern me that people made a terrible mistake as much as what it says about how even very good people can do very bad things when they turn off their consciences and simply follow orders. I don’t attribute it to the Church in any unique way, since things like that have happened far too frequently in far too many places and situations throughout history – but I certainly don’t absolve the Church from blame. I am saddened deeply, however, that it happened within my own tribe – and that it was blamed falsely on local Indians for so long.
I haven’t seen any evidence that Brigham ordered it, and the overwhelming evidence indicates to me that he didn’t want it to occur, but there are lots of people who assume he did order it. I understand why that bothers those people terribly.
I’m very glad that the Church issued an official apology and recognition of the incorrect blame.
Finally, I wouldn’t be surprised at all if your Bishop was being completely honest in his response. Knowledge of things like this isn’t and has never been a condition of local leadership, especially when the official version was so wrong for so long.
Thanks for your insight! I never thought about it in this context.
For me it us just another thing on the shelf that could cause it to collapse. Yes, people and even leaders are allowed to make mistakes, but combine cover up and denial and it starts to weigh heavier on that shelf. There are many similar examples, each adding weight. Quote:I just want to know why this event bothers people to the point they doubt the church? Can’t human beings who are LDS still do horrible things and make mistakes? Why does that take away from the Divinity of the Church? Can’t prophets still make mistakes and be divine?
I think there’s a fine line between being fallible and being dishonest / doing others harm. Even if we are OK with leaders being fallible, we want them to be better than us somehow. And sometimes they simply aren’t. In the case of Mountain Meadows, as Ray said there’s reason to believe it was carried out at low levels, not under BY’s command. But that’s the problem with overzealousness.
Quote:What bothers me is that when I got baptized I asked my Bishop about The Moutain Meadow Massacre and Blood Atonement because I saw a program I believe on PBS. My Bishop actually denied knowing what I was talking about. I find that very strange.
There are plenty of bishops who simply don’t know anything at all about real church history. They may not be interested in it. They may not like to read. They may lack intellectual curiosity. That’s true of the membership in general. It really doesn’t prevent people from their personal application of gospel principles whether they understand history or not, any more than knowing it makes us better Christians.
Some people believe that Brigham Young ordered the massacre, and if that were true then he would be a mass murderer. The “worst” I can find is that many of the Q12 / FP at the time cultivated an attitute of war, covered up the massacre, and scapegoated a few people. After reading a few books and visiting the site, the MMM isn’t a real stumbling block for me any more. Many LDS simply don’t know about it, including otherwise knowledgeable people. There’s still very much an attitude of don’t ask don’t tell in some areas of the church in regards to MMM.
I don’t think this event alone is what causes people leave. It is just another in a long line that makes people question. I think you have a good grasp of the proper attitude to take – that leaders are human and fully capable of making mistakes. In this case even monumental and horrific mistakes. MMM has been one of my personal areas of interest, I have read several books on the topic. In my mind what becomes so troubling to many members is the huge gap between how they imagine the 1850’s Utah culture, and what it really was. When we read some of BY’s sermons that speak of blood atonement it is easy today to dismiss it as rhetoric designed to get attention, and not really something to be taken seriously. By reading some segments of journals from the day you get a feel for how seriously some members took these teachings – possibly even more the further they lived from Salt Lake City, isolation can help to breed paranoia. When I boil it all down and consider the question “if I lived in the mid 1850’s would I be comfortable residing in the area of Mountain Meadows?” I have to say I would be uneasy about some of their beliefs, history demonstrates they were not completely rational and stable — and that becomes the problem. Not that it has any bearing on modern church membership, but it clashes with expectations of where we came from.
We will never know what involvement the general church leadership had in the MMM. For my part, I’m satisfied that the BY & co. did not order it, or want it. BY had nothing to gain by it, but much to lose. Immigrant wagon trains heading to California where a major source of income for the SLC and tensions where already at an all-time high between the Church and the US Gov’t. Yet, I’m still disturbed by the Church’s involvement. While I don’t believe the Church was directly responsible, the following factors bother me a lot:
1) It greatly tarnishes the view of the Church as God’s Chosen People on the earth, building up the Kingdom to prepare for the Second Coming of the man you said, “Love thy neighbor as thyself.” How could so many devout church members collude to commit mass murder, and do it, believing they were doing the Lord’s will, and then go back to their farms and ranches to live out the rest of their lives in peace?
2) The Church did cover it up and was reluctant to perform justice, preferring to protect, rather than prosecute its own people, who had committed such a horrible crime. Immediately after the MMM, BY recalled Mormons from the California settlements, preparing for the worst. Among those returning was Apostle Amasa Lyman, who was leading the settlement and living in San Bernardino the time of the MMM. Upon his return to Utah, he pressed for investigation and justice, but the leadership in SLC chose, instead, to cover it up. I’m sure this contributed greatly to the hard feelings of Lyman toward BY. The popular Apostle could never reconcile with BY and was eventually excommunicated.
It was a very dark chapter in the history of the Church. Since I don’t blame the Church itself for the MMM, I don’t think of it as a reason for me to leave the church. Instead, I take it as a reminder that good people can be turned to evil when they only look out for their own interests and have no INNER voice telling them what is right and wrong to temper their actions. It’s a reminder to me to listen to my inner voice.
Thanks everyone for your responses! I find it interesting that certain topics are just not discussed at church. IMHO, it just seems to fuel the problem. AngryMormon wrote:Thanks everyone for your responses! I find it interesting that certain topics are just not discussed at church. IMHO, it just seems to fuel the problem.
True. With regards to the MMM, there was an ensign article or GC talk about this a few years ago. First time I’d heard of it. Coming from official channels I thought it horrible and tragic but it didn’t have an impact on my faith. Later (post faith crisis) I heard of it again and it still didn’t bother me, even as I learned of the more unpleasant aspects that weren’t in the article. So yes, addressing the issues would help tremendously. The problem is how to do so in a way that doesn’t cause everyone to have a faith crisis. The answer is to do it slowly, which is being done. Seer stones popped up in the Dec Ensign, divining rods are on the new revelations in context site, and of course, there’s the JS Papers project. So it’s happening, slowly. Too slowly and too late for us perhaps, but it’s happening.AngryMormon wrote:I’m still pretty new here and I have had a great time reading old threads. I did not want to thread jack, so I started a new thread about the Mountain Meadow Massacre. In another thread I read that people view the Massacre as one of the reasons they have trouble or doubt the church…
I just want to know why this event bothers people to the point they doubt the church? Can’t human beings who are LDS still do horrible things and make mistakes? Why does that take away from the Divinity of the Church? Can’t prophets still make mistakes and be divine?…What bothers me is that when I got baptized I asked my Bishop about The Moutain Meadow Massacre and Blood Atonement because I saw a program I believe on PBS. My Bishop actually denied knowing what I was talking about. I find that very strange. What bothers me the most about this is that I think John D. Lee was basically made a scapegoat to take all the blame and to try to sweep it under the rug but it sounds like he thought they had been encouraged to do this by leaders higher up in the chain of command like George A. Smith. Also there are rumors that the idea of revenge for Parley P. Pratt being killed by the estranged husband of one of his plural wives contributed to the massacre. I don’t think any of this proves the Church is bad in general at this point or anything like that, it mostly just adds to my suspicion that Church leaders are just ordinary men and very much a product of their environment rather than being divinely guided for most of their critical decisions and official teachings.
I don’t think anyone can study MMM properly without looking at Haun’s Mill as well. Personally, I think the whole thing reeks of a screw up, misrelayed orders etc, they were probably supposed to scare them or something…
I agree that there is an enormous difference between being “fallible” and murdering men, women, and children in cold blood. But then, I didn’t live in the “wild, wild west.” John D. Lee is one of my ancestors. I still haven’t read much about the massacre. I like the way that the Church recently handled MMM over the pulpit and in print. It seems to have worked well, and I think this kind of inoculation is good.
It’s an atrocity… I agree… but nearly any other church who criticizes the LDS for this has no leg to stand on. Particularly older Protestant groups, Catholics and Orthodox.
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