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I have been somewhat fascinated with Elder Holland’s recent talk. http://www.lds.org/general-conference/print/2013/04/lord-i-believe?lang=eng It has been suggested that this talk may be addressed towards those that are struggling – like our little group.
If so – then I am seriously impressed with how finely this talk was crafted. This talk on the face of it would not cause a TBM audience to blink – yet it is pregnant with meaning to those that struggle.
I, of course, see the “hidden” message and it is full of hope for me. But then I wonder – am I only seeing what I want to see? Am I picking out patterns that weren’t intended? Is this talk really just for the youth or for people who only question because they don’t have the experience and knowledge of their more seasoned Elders (Pun intended)?
What was your experience? Now that you can go back and read the talk again – has it changed anything for you? Does it say what you thought it said?
Yes, it still does. I think he crafted it masterfully, and I actually like it more now than when I first heard it – and you all know how much I loved it when I first heard it. I think the intended audience was the Pharisaical element in the Church – which is why I think it was such a masterful talk. Remember, this is the man who said explicitly that the leadership does not want to ask anyone to leave the Church even if they don’t accept the Book of Mormon literally. I think he and Pres. Uchotdorf, especially, have made it a mission to address how members treat each other – and I truly believe they recognize that the central issue isn’t within the person who struggles but rather among the people who won’t accept those who struggle.
Given his interactions with Dehlin, given Bishop Reel mentioned there was a talk being prepared for the doubter, given the church is making so many efforts with things like history.lds.org etc… Yes I’m very confident there was an intended message. I’ll be keeping it on ‘speed dial’ for months to come. Roy wrote:This talk on the face of it would not cause a TBM audience to blink – yet it is pregnant with meaning to those that struggle.
For anyone not struggling, I’m afraid the message received is: people who struggle aren’t quite “there” yet. Let them lean on you while they stop hyperventilating (the only especially sour note in this talk) and pull things together. I felt as though he was saying, We’ll all reach the same conclusion eventually. I’m not young in any of the ways he mentioned – years, membership or faith – and don’t believe some of the foundational stories and doctrines. Leaning on others isn’t the next step for me.
On the other hand, I can and do take his counsel to play my strengths before caving to my weaknesses, and to have integrity. I was happy for the talk and really touched by the phrase “faith working its miracle.”
I see this talk of Elder Holland as a MAJOR effort to extend an olive branch to folks like us at StayLDS, who are actively wrestling with honest questions and make peace with our God and organized religion. This comes from a man who is known for having very strong doctrinaire opinions, with a legalistic twist. I believe he was a lawyer by training. So I find this address as very encouraging of changes in the Church. Following I have picked out my favorite quotes from his talk and added some of my own observations.
Quote:Mark 9:22–24; see also verses 14–21.
“If thou canst do any thing,” he said, “have compassion on us, and help us.
“Jesus said unto him, If thou canst believe, all things are possible to him that believeth.
“And straightway the father of the child cried out, and said with tears, Lord, I believe; help thou mine unbelief.”1
….
This man’s initial conviction, by his own admission, is limited. But he has an urgent, emphatic desire in behalf of his only child. We are told that is good enough for a beginning. “Even if ye can no more than desire to believe,” Alma declares, “let this desire work in you, even until ye believe.”2 With no other hope remaining, this father asserts what faith he has and pleads with the Savior of the world, “If thou canst do any thing, have compassion on us, and help us.”3 I can hardly read those words without weeping. The plural pronoun us is obviously used intentionally. This man is saying, in effect, “Our whole family is pleading. Our struggle never ceases. We are exhausted…..
“Lord, I believe; help thou mine unbelief.” In response to new and still partial faith, Jesus heals the boy, almost literally raising him from the dead, as Mark describes the incident.5
With this tender scriptural record as a backdrop, I wish to speak directly to the young people of the Church—young in years of age or young in years of membership or young in years of faith. One way or another, that should include just about all of us.
Observation number one regarding this account is that when facing the challenge of faith….The size of your faith or the degree of your knowledge is not the issue—it is the integrity… (to) truth you already know. (and IMO, to the honest questions that still remain. I think this is implied)
…I am not asking you to pretend to faith you do not have. I am asking you to be true to the faith you do have. Sometimes we act as if an honest declaration of doubt is a higher manifestation of moral courage than is an honest declaration of faith. It is not! So let us all remember the clear message of this scriptural account: Be as candid about your questions as you need to be; life is full of them on one subject or another….
Furthermore, you have more faith than you think you do because of what the Book of Mormon calls “the greatness of the evidences.”7 “Ye shall know them by their fruits,” Jesus said,8 and the fruit of living the gospel is evident in the lives of Latter-day Saints everywhere. As Peter and John said once to an ancient audience, I say today, “We cannot but speak the things which we have seen and heard,” and what we have seen and heard is that “a notable miracle hath been done” in the lives of millions of members of this Church. That cannot be denied.9
The fruits of the Church have helped me thru my crisis of faith. Despite the slights and foibles of the Church, both real and imagine, I am amazed what a country bumpkin with 3 years of school has rot. One hundred eighty three years later I stand amazed that the church survived Missouri, Illinois, Johnson’s Army invasion, polygamy, bankruptcy, the great depression, to become a church approaching 14.4 million members scattered throughout every continent and congregations in 160+ countries.
It teaches Christian moral rectitude, compassion, faith, a healthy lifestyle. Active Mormons have more education, fewer divorces, generally better health, and greater longevity than their peers. The home teaching and visiting teaching, youth programs, etc. enable members to serve one another in remarkable ways. Mormons are known to be hard working, offer amazing charitable public works (e.g., mucking out Hurricane Sandy victims, provide fresh water wells, wheel chairs and crutches in many foreign lands with absolutely no strings attached).
They often join with other religions Catholic, Protestant Islamic, to maximize the effectiveness of charity projects worldwide.
With the Joseph Smith Project, the Church is undergoing an unmatched honest look at its history, warts and all, and publishing it on the internet for all to see. (This is even as they, the Q15, struggle to figure out how to deal with the inevitable questions that result. Integrity isn’t necessarily tidy).
Quote:Brothers and sisters, this is a divine work in process, with the manifestations and blessings of it abounding in every direction, so please don’t hyperventilate if from time to time issues arise that need to be examined, understood, and resolved. They do and they will.
In this Church, what we know will always trump what we do not know. And remember, in this world, everyone is to walk by faith.So be kind regarding human frailty—your own as well as that of those who serve with you in a Church led by volunteer, mortal men and women. Except in the case of His only perfect Begotten Son, imperfect people are all God has ever had to work with. That must be terribly frustrating to Him, but He deals with it.🙂 So should we.:clap: And when you see imperfection, remember that the limitation is not in the divinity of the work….When doubt or difficulty come, do not be afraid to ask for help….
I know that
Joseph Smith, who acknowledged that he wasn’t perfect,15 was nevertheless the chosen instrument in God’s hand to restore the everlasting gospel to the earth. I also know that in doing so—particularly through translating the Book of Mormon—he has taught me more of God’s love, of Christ’s divinity, and of priesthood power than any other prophet of whom I have ever read, known, or heard in a lifetime of seeking. A quote of Joseph Smith that I love is frequently used by anti’s to discredit the BofM. He said
Quote:“The Book of Mormon was the most correct of any book on earth, and the keystone of our religion, and a man would get nearer to God by abiding by its precepts, than by any other book.” (History of the Church, 4:461.)
Please note, he did not say, “The Book of Mormon was the most correct (history, archeology, geology, sociology or historical novel) book …on earth”. He said it “was the most correct …book …on earth
(because) man would get nearer to God by abiding by its precepts, than any other book.”In other words, the proof of the pudding is in the eating, not in arguing its relative merits. I have read the BofM well over a dozen times, and it board me silly every time. I agreed with Mark Twain that it was chloroform in print. (e.g. all the wars, “and it came to pass”, and hundreds of redundancies.) But of late, after pondering the above quote, I am beginning to understand the power those precepts. It gives me hope that there’s a chance I may yet survive the correlation committee.
(Especially as long as I can quote conference talk especially Uchdorf and now Holland in Priesthood Mtg!):clap: Quote:Honestly acknowledge your questions and your concerns, but first and forever fan the flame of your faith, because all things are possible to them that believe.
I could quibble about a few things, but over all I absolutely love this talk and will be quoting it.Today a YW Laurel spoke on this talk. I asked her about it afterwards. She chose to speak on this talk as it touched her personally. She is a young person and the talk was specifically addressed to the young. Her big take away was that most people have some faith. If they nurture that faith it will grow, but if they smother it with doubt then it will shrink. It is ok and expected to have periods of discouragement and doubt. These have always been part of life and don’t mean that you are “doing it wrong.”
I was especially intrigued by her responses as I am pondering how this talk plays to various church audiences. Once again, if this talk was intended to address those with FC – then it was brilliant because it is also inspiring to the rest of the fold. Perhaps this is the winning combination that the church needs – “talking about the issue but not necessarily the issues.” (Paraphrased from Ray)
Roy wrote:Today a YW Laurel spoke on this talk. I asked her about it afterwards.
She chose to speak on this talk as it touched her personally. She is a young person and the talk was specifically addressed to the young. Her big take away was that most people have some faith. If they nurture that faith it will grow, but if they smother it with doubt then it will shrink. It is ok and expected to have periods of discouragement and doubt. These have always been part of life and don’t mean that you are “doing it wrong.”
I was especially intrigued by her responses as I am pondering how this talk plays to various church audiences. Once again, if this talk was intended to address those with FC – then it was brilliant because it is also inspiring to the rest of the fold. Perhaps this is the winning combination that the church needs – “talking about the issue but not necessarily the issues.” (Paraphrased from Ray)
Elder Holland’s talk was heavily referenced and quoted by the teacher in R.S. today, but neither she nor anyone else brought up the subject of testimony, doubting, faith crisis, etc.
I sort of blinked when it was all over. Uh….what just happened here?
😆 Ann wrote:Roy wrote:Today a YW Laurel spoke on this talk. I asked her about it afterwards.
She chose to speak on this talk as it touched her personally. She is a young person and the talk was specifically addressed to the young. Her big take away was that most people have some faith. If they nurture that faith it will grow, but if they smother it with doubt then it will shrink. It is ok and expected to have periods of discouragement and doubt. These have always been part of life and don’t mean that you are “doing it wrong.”
I was especially intrigued by her responses as I am pondering how this talk plays to various church audiences. Once again, if this talk was intended to address those with FC – then it was brilliant because it is also inspiring to the rest of the fold. Perhaps this is the winning combination that the church needs – “talking about the issue but not necessarily the issues.” (Paraphrased from Ray)
Elder Holland’s talk was heavily referenced and quoted by the teacher in R.S. today, but neither she nor anyone else brought up the subject of testimony, doubting, faith crisis, etc.
I sort of blinked when it was all over. Uh….what just happened here?
😆 I think it’s nice to be reminded that most members struggle with many forms of doubt. Doubt in themselves, doubt in their testimony, doubt in their leaders. But that doesn’t lead to what we here call a full faith crisis.
The gift of Holland’s talk was a step to de-stigmatise doubt. It gave permission for everyone to talk about it or to talk about belief not knowledge. Even for people with stronger testimonies who also have doubts.
Here’s an article that goes right along with this thread. I found it hilarious and very much to the point. Enjoy! Quote:Doubt and Mormon faith not mutually exclusive
By Robert Kirby
| Tribune Columnist
First Published Apr 18 2013
http://www.sltrib.com/sltrib/lifestyle/56178670-80/faith-believe-church-kirby.html.csp After last week’s column on the miserable job I’m doing obeying the Ten Commandments, a reader suggested it was high time that I renounce my membership in The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.
“You aren’t doing a good job obeying the Articals [sic] of Faith either. Why don’t you leave the church for once and all because you aren’t being a true member if you don’t want to have faith like the rest of us.”
It’s true. I don’t want to “have faith like the rest of you.” I couldn’t even if I did. I’m not wired that way. Fortunately, I don’t have to be for faith to work.
I sent the woman a copy of LDS apostle Jeffrey R. Holland’s recent conference talk (“Lord, I Believe”), in which he said, “I am not asking you to pretend to faith you do not have. I am asking you to be true to the faith you do have.”
If that isn’t recognition that people aren’t the same when it comes to faith, I don’t know what is. What I do know is that it’s OK for me to have doubts as long as I focus on what works for me.
To solidify this point, I also sent the woman a copy of my “13 Particles of Faith,” a personal manifesto against cloned worship. The 11th particle reads: “I claim the privilege of worshipping Almighty God according to it being none of your &%#@ business, and allow all men the same privilege except megachurch pastors, self-help gurus and some cannibals.”
The woman immediately fired back with “unfaithful” and “unspiritual.” I’ll go out on a limb here and assume she was referring to me rather than Holland. The Lord’s anointed or the spiritually disjointed, apparently neither piece worked for her. But because it leaves me in good company (for once), I’m good.
When it comes to matters of faith about anything, it’s important to play to your strengths. I didn’t always know this.
It took a long time to figure out that faith is a deeply personal matter, and I could drive myself nuts trying to fit someone else’s circus under my tent. So I stopped.
I didn’t stop being faithful. I stopped stressing about the things I didn’t have much faith in and focused instead on what did it for me. It was amazing how fast it took for the rest to matter less.
Ironically, I don’t just get this zero tolerance, everybody-the-same, all-or-nothing faith logic from fellow churchgoers.
I also get it from ex-Mormons, non-Mormons, and anti-Mormons, people every bit as insistent on correlating my faith. If I don’t agree with everything at church, why would I believe anything? I should leave with them.
“I don’t understand how a liberal-thinking guy like you can actually be a Mormon.”
Here’s a recent article that goes right along with this thread. I find it absolutely hilarious and very much on target. Enjoy!
That’s easy. My pathologically unsynchronizable brain believes 11th Particle of Faith works on them just as well.
Maybe it’s just me but I don’t believe everything about anything or anyone. I don’t even believe my wife when she says something like, “Well, we don’t have the money for that.”
It’s a lie. We probably do have the money. I just don’t know where it is. And because she isn’t going to tell me, it works out to me taking it on faith.
Here’s the thing: I don’t plan on leaving her over this major issue. I focus on what she says that I can believe and the amazing things she brings to my life when she isn’t making me crazy. Apparently there’s enough of that because we aren’t penniless and divorced.
I’m still married, still going to church, still working and still a citizen. I even still have a few friends. Wow. All of that from focusing on the parts I do have faith in.
Thanks Dash, I’d heard about that article elsewhere but hadn’t read it yet. I appreciated the sentiment. We had this as the lesson in priesthood today. I knew it would be ahead of time and was excited to have it. What a let-down. Focused more on the failure of the disciples who had not been able to heal the child in the story. They were not righteous and faithful enough apparently to heal the child and therefore are being taught a lesson.
It then focused on “If you do this then the blessing comes.” If you can say ‘I know God lives and Jesus is my Saviour then that’s a good start.
When I tried to point out that the talk was also teaching that even people who can’t say ‘I know God lives’ can still say ‘I believe God lives.’ If the belief still leads to a better self then God would welcome it and that he’s more interested in what we become than what we believe. I got a blank look, an “interesting point” and then the lesson moved on to the last part which was a story about a friend who had prayed for 5 years to have a child, but the spouse hasn’t shown the same faith. They were now divorced and the person who had prayed for a baby had “gone off the deepend” and, in the opinion of the teacher, would have been excommunicated long ago if they weren’t inactive. The teacher ‘knew’ that the friend was not happy and was now just serving their own selfish desires. This, apparently, was an object lesson in ‘leading with doubt.’
Days like today I just don’t feel like I fit. The reality of the local church is nothing like the self-created myth I create in my head of what I wish it was.
That sucks – and it’s interesting that, sometimes, it’s the very people who say there is no such thing as cafeteria / buffet Mormonism the most passionately are the best evidence that there is. We had the same lesson a couple of weeks ago in my old ward in Illinois, when we attended my son’s college graduation. It was nothing like what you described. I’m sorry for the difference – that there are too many areas where the message can get twisted that badly.
mackay11 wrote:
When I tried to point out that the talk was also teaching that even people who can’t say ‘I know God lives’ can still say ‘I believe God lives.’ If the belief still leads to a better self then God would welcome it and thathe’s more interested in what we become than what we believe.Love this, thank you! Sorry about your lesson. Seems like the gossipy, off-topic story is a favorite crutch for teachers in the church. (Maybe in other churches, too, I don’t know.)
Ann wrote:mackay11 wrote:
When I tried to point out that the talk was also teaching that even people who can’t say ‘I know God lives’ can still say ‘I believe God lives.’ If the belief still leads to a better self then God would welcome it and thathe’s more interested in what we become than what we believe.Love this, thank you! Sorry about your lesson. Seems like the gossipy, off-topic story is a favorite crutch for teachers in the church. (Maybe in other churches, too, I don’t know.)
I agree. The tragedy of the lesson was that it is so rich – but most of the time was spent re-reading the gospel accounts of the story, passionately bearing testimony (with choked up voice) of how we’re sometimes like the apostles and let people down due to our lack of faith and then a very drawn out recounting of the teacher’s ‘apostate’ friend. The fact that this muppet also thought it appropriate to stand there and say “they should have been excommunicated ages ago and have only not been because they’re completely inactive.” He was also going on about the condemnation of breaking covenants etc etc. I wanted to stand up and vomit in his smug little face.
Aaaaaaaah… And breath. Thank you all for letting me use you as therapy.
Quote:Thank you all for letting me use you as therapy.
Send me an official thank you note via e-mail. Feel free to include whatever monetary compensation you feel is appropriate.
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