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Roy wrote:
Prophesy – even JS did not seem to be able to foretell the future. If that is your expectation, I predict frustration in your future.
.I do see JS as predicting the future in certain respects (but not all). The wandering and settling of Lehi’s family in the desert on the face of it may seem to be an echo of Moses, but it also curiously foreshadows the journey of many LDS into Utah, long before anyone had thought of taking the church there.
DarkJedi wrote:
I recall a class very early in my church membership when the word prophet was defined as “teacher” as opposed to one who prophesies. Since it was obvious to me even then that the prophet rarely prophesies (and it was a sticking point to my joining the church actually) this made some sense and I’m OK with that definition. The Bible Dictionary doesn’t it in those words exactly, but does allude to the idea:Quote:The work of a Hebrew prophet was to act as God’s messenger and make known God’s will. The message was usually prefaced with the words “Thus saith Jehovah.” He taught men about God’s character, showing the full meaning of His dealings with Israel in the past. It was therefore part of the prophetic office to preserve and edit the records of the nation’s history; and such historical books as Joshua, Judges, 1 and 2 Samuel, 1 and 2 Kings were known by the Jews as the former Prophets. It was also the prophet’s duty to denounce sin and foretell its punishment and to redress, so far as he could, both public and private wrongs. He was to be, above all, a preacher of righteousness. When the people had fallen away from a true faith in Jehovah, the prophets had to try to restore that faith and remove false views about the character of God and the nature of the divine requirement. In certain cases prophets predicted future events, such as the very important prophecies announcing the coming of Messiah’s kingdom; but as a rule a prophet was a forthteller rather than a foreteller. In a general sense a prophet is anyone who has a testimony of Jesus Christ by the Holy Ghost, as in Num. 11:25–29; Rev. 19:10.
And yes, this is one of the areas of my testimony in which I have lowered my expectations – or raised them depending on your point of view (that is, I expect “Thus saith the Lord” is sort of a requirement for me to believe something is revelation).
I suppose this is more in line with my expectations for a prophet, but that still doesn’t change the fact that there doesn’t seem to be a lot of up-to-date messages from God through our “prophets”. When you look at GC talks, it’s pretty clear that they mostly quote scriptures and past talks, offering commentary on them, rather than revealing new words of God. The last canonized scripture was over 100 years ago (not counting Official Declaration 2) and the last major document touted as revelation is the Proclamation, which, given its origins, doesn’t really scream revelation, but more of a legal document and pet project of Oaks.I can get scriptural commentary from any church and inspiring words from TED talks. While the GAs do occasionally make claims of revelation, they tend to use it as a trump card and typically only in retrospect. Almost anything touted as a revelation is labeled such only after the fact, when it’s convenient to dispel objections. Frankly, I’d like to see some canonization and upfront and unapologetic revelation claims every once in a while. When changes come, they come in formal letters that, to my recollection, do not claim revelatory influence.
I suppose I can sustain the “prophet” as President (whatever that means…), but the title “prophet” is a little misleading IMO.
Like I say above, “a prophet” and not “the prophet” Beefster wrote:
There’s great advice tucked away in chastity standards, but I think it may be a mistake to categorize these issues as next to murder in severity. Scott Cannon’s story resonates strongly with me because of how these teachings have affected my self worth. Had I started younger or gotten into more serious porn, I guarantee you my story would look a lot like his.
Thanks for sharing about Scott Cannon. I had never heard of him before but I just listened to his story on a podcast and I was blown away at how his story sounded exactly like mine. His history with porn mirrors my own. He is my age, lives in my town, and started his faith crisis/transition the exact same month as me in February of 2014. Although, that is where our stories diverge drastically, as I chose a different path than he did.
I chose to give up porn completely and work on my relationship with God. I also chose to stay LDS. I’m very happy with the path I chose and have found peace, happiness, and have become much closer to my wife and others I care about. I’m happier than I’ve ever been. I know I could not have found the happiness I have with porn still apart of my life.
I have no doubt porn was destroying my happiness. Shame played a role, but the biggest factor was the damage porn was doing to my brain. It was literally inhibiting my brain from feeling joy. Even with shame removed from the equation it would have sucked the life out of me.
As I listened to his story it was eerie, almost like I was listening to a podcast of me in an alternate universe where I took a different path in 2014. I fear his story is not going to end well.
SamBee wrote:
Roy wrote:Prophesy – even JS did not seem to be able to foretell the future. If that is your expectation, I predict frustration in your future.
.I do see JS as predicting the future in certain respects (but not all). The wandering and settling of Lehi’s family in the desert on the face of it may seem to be an echo of Moses, but it also curiously foreshadows the journey of many LDS into Utah, long before anyone had thought of taking the church there.
Even before my FC, I read Rough Stone Rolling and I was shocked that JS did not seem to know or be prepared for major events to hit the church. Perhaps it seems silly to expect that much of JS but that was my vision of him. The Kirtland banking scandal was a big event where the prophet led the church in an arguably illegal speculative venture, giving (IMO unethical) divine promises of success. When the whole thing collapsed many lost life savings and it nearly broke the church. I read example after example of JS not knowing what was going to happen in advance. In personal matters, in church administration, even in “thus saith the lord revelations” that were later canonized in D&C – I find example after example of JS not accurately predicting the future. I do not believe that predicting the future was one of Joseph’s gifts.
JAC wrote:
Thanks for sharing about Scott Cannon. I had never heard of him before but I just listened to his story on a podcast and I was blown away at how his story sounded exactly like mine. His history with porn mirrors my own.
I too had not heard of Scott. I Googled him and listened to his recorded testimony regarding his porn addiction, his deep shame, and suicidal thoughts. IMO Scott probably suffers from (What is that word that means excessive guilt for relatively minor offenses/sins?). He made references to his friends and even his bishop’s perspectives that this was not such a big deal, but Scott honed in on scriptures and sources that indicated that it was deadly serious. I am not excusing church culture around P and M, it is not helpful. I am just saying that Scott seemed to take it more seriously than most.
In general, I believe church works best when you use moderation in your application. Neither complete disregard nor “every jot and tittle” deadly seriousness. Somewhere in the middle is best in my opinion.
I have observed that many members of the church project an image of righteousness that is less than accurate. I know from personal experience that the facade is difficult to maintain and led me to hate the parts of me that I hid from everyone else. I gradually grew to hate myself. Living a double life is exhausting and plain sucks. Early in my life I found that I didn’t measure up to the standards taught in church so I hid all my flaws. The older I got, the more entrenched I was in my cover-up. I thought if anyone found out who I really was they would hate me and reject me. I thought I’d lose everything I loved. This conflict inside me led me to entertain suicidal thoughts and I frequently fantasized about sticking a gun to my head. I thought about it so much at one point that I asked my wife to hide my guns.
I eventually found peace only when I started to live one authentic life. My double life had to die in order for me to love myself. I have observed that when members go through a faith transition and leave the church they feel relieved and report feeling happier than they ever have. I believe this is because they are finally living a complete authentic life whereas in the church they were not. I also believe it is possible for people to be authentic and stay in the church and I wish more did. Our church would be better for it.
JAC wrote:
I eventually found peace only when I started to live one authentic life. My double life had to die in order for me to love myself. I have observed that when members go through a faith transition and leave the church they feel relieved and report feeling happier than they ever have. I believe this is because they are finally living a complete authentic life whereas in the church they were not. I also believe it is possible for people to be authentic and stay in the church and I wish more did. Our church would be better for it.
I agree with this, especially about more authentic people staying in the church (and the earlier part about members projecting a false image of righteousness). Our church would indeed be better for it, as others are.
And I also think part of the reason people feel happier is because they have been able to let go of the guilt/fear. There’s much to be said for that, and likewise people can let go of the guilt/fear and remain in the church. There certainly is “good guilt,” the kind that helps us change (repent) for the better. There is also “bad guilt,” the kind where we beat ourselves up for no reason or because we’re comparing ourselves to some false standard (pseudo-doctrine). I think the second kind is way more prevalent among church members, and plays a huge part in faith crises or just plain inactivity because people don’t feel like they fit in or measure up or can repent. Were it not for those who project false righteousness (none of us are all that good), this would be much less of an issue IMO.
I believe Joseph Smith predicted some things but not others. I do think he knew he would die young but not how young and when he thought he would be. I think he also correctly surmised the LDS would only work if it headed west, and like I say, the BoM actually anticipates later aspects of LDS history. JAC wrote:
I have observed that many members of the church project an image of righteousness that is less than accurate.
About a month ago, I went to gospel essentials class and the lesson was on honesty. The teacher described how she went to great lengths to do things like return pens that she had inadvertently taken from her bank. Another participant spoke about how she had been fired many times for being too honest. For example, she refused to use marketing tactics to make customers think they were getting a better deal than they really were.
I remember thinking that we sure were setting an incredibly high standard for new members. It certainly did not seem to be an environment where someone could say, “I lie, cheat, and steal sometimes but I am trying to do better.”
Speaking of honesty:
JAC wrote:
Early in my life I found that I didn’t measure up to the standards taught in church so I hid all my flaws. The older I got, the more entrenched I was in my cover-up. I thought if anyone found out who I really was they would hate me and reject me. I thought I’d lose everything I loved. This conflict inside me led me to entertain suicidal thoughts and I frequently fantasized about sticking a gun to my head. I thought about it so much at one point that I asked my wife to hide my guns.
I am sorry this affected you in this way. My own personality is more comfortable with creative/selective honesty. It is ironic that my comfort level with selective honesty or projecting a false front is actually a very handy trait to have in LDS circles.
Hyrum Smith wrote:
“I think Latter-day Saints have a greater challenge admitting they are leading a double life, because the culture doesn’t encourage you to fix problems but to hide them.”He believes the two most welcome groups of people in the church “are the righteous ones and the liars. If you screw up and admit it, you get chewed up by the culture.”
He has since had “a lot of relatively prominent people say, ‘I don’t think I’d ever do that, I’d just take care of it privately and not go through it.’ That’s why 97 out of 100 people who are excommunicated don’t come back. That’s a scary number, and you ask yourself why.”
https://www.deseretnews.com/article/595053452/Utah-businessman-now-back-in-the-fold.html Even if you do not consider yourself an addict, the addiction recovery program website includes some uplifting videos from people who have made mistakes and bad life choices but have returned to activity in the church. It is a nice antidote to what you describe.
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