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Well, life has its twists and turns. For my whole life, my daughter has been a stalwart in the church — ever since she was a little girl until her mid-twenties and getting married in the temple to a traditional believer. I have posted here when she did or said things that put me in a bind between being outwardly compliant while not being really active. I eventually came clean with her about my reasons, citing some of the traumatic experiences I’ve had in the church. She persisted in her TBM-ness in spite of my confession. The other day we were on the phone (I only get to talk to her if she calls my wife and we get on speaker phone, but that’s another story). She confessed to her bishop that she’s got “one foot out the door”. I asked if she cared to expand on it, and she said she wasn’t comfortable talking about it. But she talks about it to my wife. My wife won’t tell me what the issues are, not wanting to betray my daughter’s trust. But she did say it had to do with cultural issues in Utah and the fact that I and my wife have had traumatic experiences in the church.
I guess I’m partly to blame for this. The fact that she quoted our (my) traumatic experiences indicates I’m partly responsible for this. It’s interesting that this should all come to light now that she is in her mid-twenties.
Would you feel partly or even wholly responsible in a situation like this?Boy, life does have its twists and turns, doesn’t it? Like a good movie or TV series, sometimes those twists are what makes it really interesting. I don’t think any of our children are what I would consider anywhere close to stalwart or true blue even though all three boys did serve missions, all four graduated (or are graduating) from BYU, and two are married in the temple (two are unmarried).
Number one (daughter) is so far out the door I don’t think she even sees the door anymore. But she is successful in her career and contributes to society and her community. She also has a wonderful also out-the-door significant other who is likewise successful (they are heterosexual in case you’re wondering).
Number 2 is married in the temple and he and his wife (also a BYU graduate) are both in graduate programs (not in Utah). They attend church irregularly. They recently moved to another apartment and changed wards, I don’t think they’ve been to the new ward. They do not pay tithing, believing the church has enough money and they’re poor people who shouldn’t need to pay.
Number 3 is also married in the temple, lives in Happy Valley, and works for the small company he interned with while at BYU. His wife (a BYU grad) works locally as well. They have been married 2 years and have not been to church in a long time. They do not wear garments (something my wife notices more than me) and while they don’t live a “sinful” lifestyle (unless shopping at Walmart on Sunday is sinful) they have also not said they’re are out of the church and they do at least some church related reading – but mostly related to their doubts. They also don’t pay tithing, but don’t consider themselves poor.
Number four is close to graduating from BYU and is a menace to society (almost – he’s 24 and unmarried). He does attend church somewhat regularly. He is in a YSA ward in a regular stake (not a BYU stake). His roommates are true believers and I think they have some influence on his church attendance. Plus he needs the ecclesiastical endorsement. He certainly has his questions and doubts though and is not averse to things like Sunday shopping or fishing. He is hetero but disagrees with the way the church treats LGBTQ+ folks and the general judgmental attitude.
So now that I’ve bored you all, to answer the question, no, I don’t “blame” myself and would not were I in your situation. I think I’ve read enough of your posts over the years to know your relationship with your daughter is “complicated” (as is your relationship with your wife). I think all relationships are complicated, some more than others, and we only hurt the ones we love. I support the decisions my adult children make about their lives because it’s their lives. We generally don’t talk about my beliefs, but they are also pretty much aware of them (and I don’t tend to be openly critical of the church.) I think the church leadership (Q15) have put some effort into helping parents understand they are not to blame for their children’s status, even going so far as to say it’ll all be OK in not so many words. I have hope in Jesus Christ and that HIs atonement is all that it’s promised to be.
I think in the end we’re all responsible for our own decisions regardless of other influences.
And, Utah culture can be hard to deal with especially in Happy Valley (Provo-Orem) and Cache Valley. I couldn’t live in either of those places, and would struggle in much more diverse SLC. On the surface the church is the same everywhere, under the skin it definitely is not.
Each person’s spiritual journey is their own. I get what you’re saying, I worry about my influence on family members when it comes to all things church. At the same time I try not to go as far as crossing the bridge that has me using the word blame because blame carries a negative connotation. I don’t frame joining the church or leaving the church as either good or bad, I see them as neutral events.
Don’t get me wrong, I think joining the church can be good for someone but I also think leaving the church can be good for someone. By the same token, joining the church could be bad for someone and leaving the church could be bad for someone. It’s really down to the individual and their individual circumstances… but as far as the morality of joining or leaving, I don’t see it as good or bad. Leaving the church isn’t an inherently bad decision, remaining isn’t an inherently good decision.
I try not to worry much about whether I’ve influenced someone’s decision to leave (or stay of that matter). Ultimately it’s that person’s decision and if they’re making it of their own free will then it must have been the right one for them to make in the moment they made it.
With your daughter being in her mid-twenties, I wouldn’t blame yourself. If she were a decade or two younger then sure, I’d look in the mirror. But, at her age, she has a mind of her own. You’ve raised her and where she goes after that is entirely on her. I don’t know everything about your relationship with your daughter, but the arms length it sounds like she has you at speaks to her ability to take or leave what you say. If she took something you believed and let it influence her, that was her choice. Also if I had to guess, you and your wife’s experiences are probably just supporting her current beliefs and likely aren’t the cause of them.
When we first started dealing with my faith crisis, DW talked about not wanting to “confuse” the children. I feel that, if not confusing the children requires that we teach them that there is only one right way to please God then they ought to be confused.
I see it as part of my role as a parent to expose my children to different people and different ways of doing things and trying to provide context for why different approaches and ways of living can work for different people.
There was for my kids a tumultuous time. Parting ways with the church, letting us know, dealing with friends learning about it and all that. And I worried that maybe I had influenced them too much. But come to find out they each had their own reasons that have nothing to do with me. Your daughter has cited your experience, but maybe that’s not the deep-down reason for her moving away. Fast forward to a time when you might have wide-ranging, deep discussions with your daughter. Because she’ll know she has your support and respect and confidence that she is doing what is best for her. That’s where we are now and I wouldn’t trade it for the world.
I hope all goes well for you.
Half of my kids are fully active in the Church. Half are not active at all. Of the ones who married in the temple, the percentage split is exactly the same: 50/50. Did I and my wife play a role in that? Absolutely. We told them often they needed to make their own decisions and that we would support them no matter what. Are we responsible for that (for either half)? Absolutely not. They each made the decisions that they thought were best at the time.
Interestingly, two of the kids who are not active at all are two of the ones I would have guessed would be, if I had been forced to say when they were adolescents – and one of the ones who is active is one of two I would have guessed would not be.
I am looking ahead with interest at judgment day. There are scriptures that place accountability “on the heads of the parents” if we don’t teach our children properly. I guess this includes example. Oh, I find this Mormon business really hard. It has been such a mixed bag. On one hand, my association with Mormons led to a professor recommending me for a Master’s Business program that led me to a very satisfying, decent-paying career with interesting work for the last 2.5 decades. That is a major contribution to my life of being a Mormon.
On the other hand, it’s been so hard in many ways. I feel incredibly let down at the way the church behaves like any other temporal organization when the chips are down. So disappointing and testimony-shattering. The behavior of people in the church has been very hurtful to me at different times. And the financial burden — I don’t understand how a person with a modest income (decent, but modest) and no pension can get ahead and eventually retire when they are giving away 10% of their income each year to a church which, by most public reports, doesn’t need it. And then, there is the monotony of it all.
All that with stiff accountabilities associated with life after death and judgment. It wears me out, quite frankly.
SilentDawning wrote:
I am looking ahead with interest at judgment day. There are scriptures that place accountability “on the heads of the parents” if we don’t teach our children properly. I guess this includes example.
I know that there are scriptures that talk like that. They have an audience that they are trying to motivate. However, I worry that it removes grace and mercy from the equation. I believe that the “Good News” of Jesus is that He paid the price for your shortcoming so that you don’t have to if you believe in Him. I like the example of the overdrawn checking account from the book “Believing Christ.” When you join with Christ you merge your account with His infinite account. So even if your parenting imperfections are “upon your head,” it won’t matter because Jesus already paid that debt for you.
Sometimes “church” and “religion” gets in the way of Jesus. Jesus never wears me out. (Not that I don’t get worn out, I do. I just like to separate all that stuff from those parts that give me hope.)
Roy wrote:
SilentDawning wrote:
I am looking ahead with interest at judgment day. There are scriptures that place accountability “on the heads of the parents” if we don’t teach our children properly. I guess this includes example.
I know that there are scriptures that talk like that. They have an audience that they are trying to motivate. However, I worry that it removes grace and mercy from the equation. I believe that the “Good News” of Jesus is that He paid the price for your shortcoming so that you don’t have to if you believe in Him. I like the example of the overdrawn checking account from the book “Believing Christ.” When you join with Christ you merge your account with His infinite account. So even if your parenting imperfections are “upon your head,” it won’t matter because Jesus already paid that debt for you.
Sometimes “church” and “religion” gets in the way of Jesus. Jesus never wears me out. (Not that I don’t get worn out, I do. I just like to separate all that stuff from those parts that give me hope.)
:thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: Quote:The burden placed on LDS mothers to keep our kids Church-active into adulthood is as intense as it is misplaced.
I suppose it comes with the territory of believing that we alone have the golden ticket to become what God wants for us. We are pretty obsessed with making sure that our children continue on the “covenant path” and carry on our legacy. I think the judgment directed at parents after their children leave the church is softening (similar to how the judgement leveled at young men who return early from missions is softening).
Fwiw, the scripture only addressed parents who don’t teach their kids, NOT parents whose kids pick different paths. I don’t see that scripture as a condemnation or even criticism of our Heavenly Parents, so I don’t interpret it that way about earthly parents, either. Also, every single religion throughout history has taught the same thing to the parents – without exception. Even most atheists believe the same general principle (that it is their responsibility to teach their children what they believe). The Catholic guilt trip is a well-known trope for a reason – but it isn’t limited to any one religion or denomination.
One bit of good from my heart attack is that my daughter opened up about why she “no longer considers herself Mormon”. I had been praying that my relationship with her would deepen again. I think the prospect of losing me soon caused her to open up to me about things she had been holding close to the vest. For her, it started when she got married in the temple, apparently. Even though she attended temple preparation classes, she felt she was unprepared for the endowment ceremony commitments. She felt “duress” (my word) since she had to go through with the endowment in order to get married — something she really wanted to do. She felt “on the spot” when asked to make the commitments of the endowment. She felt there was no way she should withdraw as a result of her own free will and choice when her marriage was at stake. The lack of transparency in the church also bothers her, and she quoted the church’s 100 Billion dollars in assets/income/savings/whatever as a concern for her. She discounted her spiritual experiences saying that she feels the spirit in connection with a lot of things, not just the church.
I would say she has both feet out the door now. It’s a good thing her husband really seems to love her for who she is, as I believe one reason he married her was her strength in the church and gospel. I told her to refrain from name removal, as she needs to be open to eventually having her own Road to Damascus experience like Paul did, and to make a turnaround. I told her to have great faith in her own ignorance, and she seemed to agree with that approach.
Both my wife and I are sad that she has gone down this route, as she seems further off the beaten path than either of us. I still consider myself a Mormon, still read the scriptures now and then, and believe the church has “some” legs, although I can’t seem to commit to it like I once did — at least, not for now.
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