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I just returned from the lands of a prophet of another time and place. Amidst preparing for business meetings, I spent time memorizing surahs (Al-Fatihah is required and fairly simple) and trying to understand the land and its people. Imagine, if you would, a place where LDS standards are not only practiced, but it’s actually quite difficult to violate the standards of the church. Modesty is rigorously enforced. Nothing is open on the Sabbath. It’s not feasible to violate the word of wisdom (in most of its particulars) because several substances are simply not available. Prayer is a daily part of life, with time set aside from work and commerce to pray as needed. The proclamation on the family is abided by firmly, as mothers are almost forbidden from working outside the home. Even “blood atonement” is alive and well…
The people I met with in this land are wonderful. I find them to be very caring, family-oriented, and honest with me. Their food is absolutely exquisite. It’s very clean (aside from the desert sand everywhere), and a great place to visit…but something struck me as I visited.
The custodians of the two Holy Mosques, Mecca and Medina, are the leaders of this holy enclave. Pictures of the King and his two principle heirs adorn every building. As I sat on the dais of a government hall presenting to ‘princes’ (no big deal –there are 15,000 in total), I looked up to find these three pictures of very old men reminded me of similar pictures in each and every building of worship in my own land and faith.
True, the rules are different. But that’s not my point. If I were a ‘gentile’ in 1855, the territory of deseret would have appeared to me just like…saudi arabia does today.
I have always been open to other faiths. I”ve read the Quran twice in english, only to realize, ultimately, that you’re not reading the Quran unless it is in arabic. Hence, I’ve been focusing on surahs in arabic, at least while wayfaring in the land of the holy mosques. This trip to this land, I’ve tried to think in terms of how a muslim would think — which is at odds with what I’ve adopted in my life of Mahatma Gandhi’s statement, “I am a muslim, I am a hindu, I am a christian, I am a jew, and so are all of you”. As I memorized surahs and contemplated the meaning of the first pillar of Islam, “There is no god but god and Mohammed is his prophet”, I realized that there is no middle ground — no place where I can claim that statement AND hold that Joseph Smith, was also a prophet and that Pres Monson is a prophet today.
Exclusivity among the faiths is alive and well — As there are are hundreds of times more muslims as there are LDS, I have to wonder: what kind of god enables this mutual exclusivity? What can I learn from the statements of exclusivity rampant in islam, which many of our LDS prophets today have preached with equal certainty? How is a recited testimony from a glove any different than the profession of faith of a muslim?
Great questions, wayfarer. Truly food for thought. My only quick answer is that I love the idea of a God who allows people to believe whatever works for them – or a theology that stresses allowing all men everywhere the privilege of worshiping according to the dictates of their own consciences. We forget that foundation too easily, but it’s there, nonetheless.
Damn good questions. And important.
It is why the “middle way” IMO, is the only “true” way. And it is the gods way.
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Good questions. I have been to a few Muslim countries but in one, the locals wanted to kill me so I didn’t spend a lot of time contemplating their religion. I like the idea of teaching correct principles and letting the people govern themselves. I think we are moving farther away from that idea. i floated a similar post on mddb…with interesting response. to some of the true believers, these questions are immaterial…even silly or incomprehensible. i think it’s scary to contemplate what the unchecked State of Deseret would have looked like. the long dresses and coverings to the neck and wrists within LDS history and among the Jeffs fundamentalists reminded me so much of the abaya. the weekly executions in saudi remind me of Brigham Young’s push for blood atonement in the mormon reformation of 1856. one has to wonder.
I really believe in a separation of church and state. church0333 wrote:I really believe in a separation of church and state.
i hear you, and passionately adhere to Jefferson’s oath as a personal covenant. whenever the church has crossed that line it has been ugly. however, 10 years ago, at the height of the invasion of Iraq, the prophet demanded uncompromising loyalty from members respecting support of the church leaders on political positions. then, five years later, the church called in its loyalty chips in prop8.my trip to the Kingdom was a reminder of what the state of deseret would be like.
Before I went to Iraq I was given a video put out by the church assuring us members that fighting in a war and killing if necessary would not hurt our relationship with the church or with God. I thought that this was appropriate. I think the church can show support for a war like Iraq, especially with the things we were told by the government leaders, but prop 8 bothered me from the get go. To tell you the truth, I came back from Iraq very dissillusioned by the whole war. I was excited to go and do my duty but I saw so much corruption and waste it made me sick. If any American died, no matter how they died, they were a hero. If an Iraqi was killed it didn’t mean squat to the top brass. Kill a kid and give the family a few thousand dollars and all was good. Kill a male adult and you might get a metal whether he was armed or not. I’m not sure if the war was right or not but overall I am glad I went but I will never be the same. wayfarer wrote:i floated a similar post on mddb…with interesting response. to some of the true believers, these questions are immaterial…even silly or incomprehensible.
i think it’s scary to contemplate what the unchecked State of Deseret would have looked like. the long dresses and coverings to the neck and wrists within LDS history and among the Jeffs fundamentalists reminded me so much of the abaya. the weekly executions in saudi remind me of Brigham Young’s push for blood atonement in the mormon reformation of 1856. one has to wonder.
Blood atonement? WTF? As soon I think I have heard it all…
johnh wrote:Blood atonement? WTF? As soon I think I have heard it all…
Isn’t utah still one of the few states were a person on death row can choose firing squad so their ‘blood spills.’
This article on blood atonement on huffington is fairly reasonable:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/mobileweb/2010/05/24/firing-squad-sparks-talk_n_587836.html We have more in common with the muslims than many a jarhead utahn would care to admit. This website has a good intro to some Muslim ideology:
http://www.islam101.com/sociology/spiritualPath.htm Quote:
The first necessity for progression along the path of spiritual development is MAN (faith)… This should be a firm conviction, based not merely on the intellect, but also on acceptance by the will. The stronger and deeper this conviction, the more profound a man’s faith will be.The second stage is that of obedience (it~ ’at), meaning that man gives up his independence and accepts subservience to Allah… man should not only acknowledge Allah as his Lord and Sovereign but should actually submit before Him and fashion his entire life in obedience to Him.
The third stage is that of taqw~ (Allah-consciousness). It consists in a practical manifestation of one’s faith in Allah in one’s daily life. Taqw~ also means desisting from everything which Allah has forbidden or has disapproved of…
The last and the highest stage is that of ihs~ n (godliness) It signifies that man has attained highest excellence in words, deeds and thoughts, identifying his will with the will of Allah and harmonizing it, to the best of his knowledge and ability, with the Divine will. He thus begins to like what is liked by the Lord and to dislike what He dislikes.
My brother (not active, but still grounded in some mormon principles) lives in the slightly more liberal UAE. He loves it and can’t bear the thought of coming back to the wishy-washy west.
I find the Five Pillars of Islam very similar to our beliefs and practices. 1. Declaration of faith–Articles of Faith and baptismal interview/covenants.
2. Daily prayers–no explanation needed.
3. Almsgiving–fast offerings.
4. Fasting during the month of Ramadan–fast Sunday.
5. Pilgrimage to Mecca at least once in a lifetime–go to the Temple.
It is good to have you back Wayfarer! My husband was a Near Eastern Studies major at BYU, it is a common belief among the professors there that Mohammed was inspired by God and maybe even a prophet, (but not A Prophet), but he either was fallen, or God only gave him a portion of the truth because he wasn’t ready to reveal everything. However, Islam did unite a large group of disparate tribes culturally and religiously and allowed a lot of cultural exchange that wasn’t happening until they had a common religion.
I spent time in Egypt during Ramadan and it was very interesting. One of our guides was a middle way Muslim, and much of what he told us about ancient Egyptian theology was with examples of how it paralleled the common religions today. I particularly remember him drawing outlines in the sand of an Egyptian Temple, a Mosque, a Christian Church in the sand (a Mormon temple could have been included too) all low buildings with a tall spire. He said people argue and even kill each other over differences in religion, it is silly, they don’t realize that they are the same. They are the same only with little differences, but they look so much at the differences, they don’t see they are the same.
Oh, and I was taught blood atonement at BYU in the ’90s.
rebeccad wrote:
Oh, and I was taught blood atonement at BYU in the ’90s.I’d heard it often enough that all through through my teens I was under the impression that blood atonement for murder was a church doctrine. I used to worry how a British Mormon (no death penalty) would be able to atone for murder.
I’ve not heard it mentioned for a while though, so I guess the 00s finally killed it off (if you’ll pardon the pun).
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