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F4h1, I am just now getting around to read your intro (I’m a late comer to the welcome party) but let me still say welcome.
You and I have much in common, from family heritage, to callings, to 4 kids (and 1 wife), and feelings on the WoW and questions on other things that previously were never questioned about the church.
I have found this a safe place to explore my questions and not feel others are guilting me, or trying to prove to me something. Just questions and discussions about valid things that impact our lives.
Welcome, I look forward to learning from your posts.
The Word of Wisdom issues were less of a struggle for me when I realized that it was not made a commandment until after the saints came to Utah. Originally, it was just that, a word of wisdom. Part of the problem we have is that we take a current snapshot of the church and impose it on what the past was. This is reinforced by modern paintings, movies, tv shows etc, of earlier times that impose our standards on the depiction of the past. A simple example is haircuts and grooming standards. We tend to have think our modern short hair and clean shaven men have always been a standard in the church.
I have had the same thoughts about all the obese people in the church and the frequent tendency against moderation in all things, but, we can only really control what ourselves and I choose to focus on that. I think the Word of Wisdom is wise, albeit not the entire gospel, and I would choose to keep it even if I completely fell away from the church.
All that being said, this dissonance you are feeling is a big reason why most of us are here.
Heber13 wrote:F4h1,
I am just now getting around to read your intro (I’m a late comer to the welcome party) but let me still say welcome.
You and I have much in common, from family heritage, to callings, to 4 kids (and 1 wife), and feelings on the WoW and questions on other things that previously were never questioned about the church.
I have found this a safe place to explore my questions and not feel others are guilting me, or trying to prove to me something. Just questions and discussions about valid things that impact our lives.
Welcome, I look forward to learning from your posts.
Indeed the force is strong with you!
Hey, and welcome. I feel your pain. I share your anger. I hope this experience works out for you (and your family’s) good, as I think it is for me and mine. Frankly, I’m just a bit jealous. I wasn’t able to start sorting things out until my kids were pretty much grown. Richard Bushman once described the church as ‘institutional and literal’, which happen to be the two things that drive me up the wall. I’m trying to navigate around that, and it can take some doing, but I think (hope!) it can be done.
“O be wise, what can I say more.” http://www.fairlds.org Sorry F4H1, part of moving through Stage 4 is letting go of the need to ridicule others who disagree or whose understanding is different than our own. Try to refrain from insults, ok? We just don’t do that here. Incredulity can be expressed – or even anger – without resorting to insults. Also, just to point it out, there is nothing factually wrong with stating that the Word of Wisdom was not made a commandment until after Joseph had died. Jamison was correct in that statement. Up until his death, it still was considered counsel. To equate Joseph drinking with Israelites killing people . . . I’m not sure how that comparison works.
I read your post F4H1 – before your edit, and chuckled to myself just imagining the scolding that you would get from the moderators. I couldn’t post because I was on my phone internet, but I wanted to. To be honest, the most frustrating part of this stayLDS forum to me is when someone gets on and tries so hard to defend the church with apologetic and mental gymnastics rather than just being upfront and honest about the problematic issues at hand. I I’m here in the church and really don’t want to leave the tribe — but I can’t do that kind of mind-bending any longer – and if I want to subject myself to it, I will just go to church. Even though this site is designed to be slanted to find strategies to STAY, I expect StayLDS to be real, to be honest, and to be logical and rational — and I think it is for the most part. I don’t think Mr. Jamison was being apologetic necessarily, even though he did mention that “he knows stayLDS is not an apoligetic site, but…” I think he was just expressing his personal opinion about the WoW and the PoGP, which, to you and I WAS apologetic.
I think that the whole Book of Abraham argument that Jamison talked about needs to be an entirely different thread. I mean, if we have a guy on here who has studied Hebrew/Eygyptain language and has an opinion – lets talk about it in it’s own thread. I’m interested, as I have not heard an apologetic response about the Book of Abraham that works for me and I would like to explore these comments further. Also – the whole WoW is, IMO, the biggest deal-breaker in the church, and jamison’s comments probably would have set me off six months ago. The issue needs to be discussed in a separate thread as well I suppose since there are new folks here since the last time it was hammered out. It’s been a few months since we’ve argued, ah, ah, I mean discussed the “the most important commandment” in the mormon church.
I actually thought of you, cwald, as I was typing my comment to f4h1 – and wondered how you would word the comment I knew would follow. 
I must say, “Well done!”
:clap: 
Oh, and f4h1, please don’t feel like you need to delete an emotional comment just because someone (me, usually) asks you to watch your tone. It’s not a bad thing at all for others to see the emotion, incredulity, etc. in the words of those who still are working through the process of finding peace. I appreciate that you deleted it, simply because of the humility that shows – but I certainly don’t want anyone to think we are demanding alterations or deletions here. If something is so bad that it needs to be deleted, we’ll do it – and send a Private Message to the person who wrote it explaining why. That very, very rarely happens – just so you know. So, please don’t feel “guilty” in any way – either for expressing your true feelings in the comment OR for deleting it now that I’ve said you didn’t have to delete it.
🙂 Just let it drop and learn from it, ok?As Brain said, I also think you probably are falling into grace – and we really do try to be gracious here, even as we discuss our differences, disagreements, disillusionment and reconstruction methods.
One way of building a constructive reconciliation strategy is to just believe. I don’t think it’s as common here, but faith shouldn’t be a popularity contest. If it works for someone, I say power to ’em. That actually is the easiest way to stay integrated with other faithful LDS, those who are generally unaware of the problems and issues. cwald wrote:I think that the whole Book of Abraham argument that Jamison talked about needs to be an entirely different thread. I mean, if we have a guy on here who has studied Hebrew/Eygyptain language and has an opinion – lets talk about it in it’s own thread. I’m interested, as I have not heard an apologetic response about the Book of Abraham that works for me and I would like to explore these comments further.
Agreed. Most apologetics regarding the papyri that I’ve read (Nibley and some FARMS articles) didn’t really pass the smell test for me. But I’m willing to listen and learn.A year and a half has past since I wrote this introduction post. I sit and consider what I wrote then and what I’ve learned since that time and how my life has changed. I’m sure some of you have or could perform this same exercise. Rarely does a day pass that I don’t read a book on church history, or listen to a podcast. The ramifications of my decisions have penetrated the lives of friends and family causing a ripple or a tsunami that cannot be recalled. One thing that remains the same I try to “do what is right and let the consequences follow” Fatherof4husbandof1 wrote:One thing that remains the same I try to “do what is right and let the consequences follow”
That is a great Mormon belief to preserve in my opinion — one of the few things I still like to take literally.
Fatherof4… Interesting introduction & family history.
Welcome to the group.
Mike from Milton.
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