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So, I am still learning how to constructively voice my ideas, views, and opinions without dropping a nuclear bomb on the faith of everyone in the room. I gave my first dissenting, constructive remark on Sunday in EQ. Here’s the scene. We’re discussing the Wentworth letter and a discussion evolves into why Joseph was persecuted after getting the plates. Everyone launches into a discussion about how Christ was persecuted, and we should expect persecution, and that persecution is somehow a sign of truth, and blah, blah, blah
🙄 🙄 🙄 🙄 Each new comment seemed to be more fantastic than the previous one.So I raised my hand and said something like “During Joseph’s treasure seeking, money digging days, he associated with a specific crowd of people. When Joseph got the plates, many of them felt entitled to those plates since Joseph was a part of their clan. Even some of his groupmates brought their own peepstones to try and find where Joseph had hid them. I think the persecution is a natural consequence of Joseph’s claims and the fact that many felt they were equally entitled to this treasure.”
So after I finished speaking, everyone was looking at me. And then, you know what happened? Nothing. Absolutely nothing. It was all so anti-climactic I didn’t know what to think. I don’t know what I expected, but no one even seemed to care. Maybe they thought I was a lunatic or something. But they just went on with the lesson. I figured at least someone would approach me after class and say something, but nope, nothing.
So, my point is, maybe we make too big a deal out of this. Maybe we are exhibiting the psychological spotlight effect. That is, we think everybody will notice and care if we look silly, act silly, or say something stupid. And yet, they don’t. Maybe my comment was a good pull back into reality and everyone took it as that (that was my intention).
You actually said “peepstones” in church!? 😮 Somehow, I’m not surprised at the lack of a reaction. I know in my ward several men have read RSR (at least parts of it) and I’ve also observed a healthy lack of interest in historical issues among people I know. I’ve seen people read books that would get my type all excited about little (I never heard that before!) items, but it doesn’t seem to faze them one bit.
I don’t know, but I do agree with Bushman — I hope we can get to a place where we’re comfortable talking about the historical record among members.
They may not have said anything in the meeting, but $200 bucks they were talking about it over Sunday dinner. Orson wrote:You actually said “peepstones” in church!?
😮
Well, maybe I didn’t actually use that word. I did use “treasure seeking” and “money digging,” but I may not have said “peepstone.” Hmmm, now I don’t remember.
Poppyseed wrote:They may not have said anything in the meeting, but $200 bucks they were talking about it over Sunday dinner.
Yes, you may be right. And it still may come back to haunt me.Quote:es, you may be right. And it still may come back to haunt me.
I hope not. I want to believe that people are deeper and broader than they appear in touchy feely lessons at church. I know I don’t say half of what I am thinking cuz half the time we are all just trying to get thru the lesson without any major departures. I wonder if you made people think. I like the reality check theory.
I think your comments weren’t in the manual…so they didn’t know what to say. Please try to stick to the manual material only!
😆 😆 😆 I can tell you that this comment would have been fine in my ward. Most of the members with any time under their belt have read RSR and/or would know what you are talking about. Whenever you say something that’s true and thought-provoking, you’re fine (IME). It’s when you say something speculative and controversial that your run afoul of the ward orthodoxy police. jmb275 wrote:So, my point is, maybe we make too big a deal out of this. Maybe we are exhibiting the psychological spotlight effect. That is, we think everybody will notice and care if we look silly, act silly, or say something stupid. And yet, they don’t. Maybe my comment was a good pull back into reality and everyone took it as that (that was my intention).
Yup.
That has been my experience too. Really. I think a lot of us making a bigger deal out of this than it is. As long as we are at a point where we don’t drop a bomb and unload the whole dump truck, and make a *constructive* comment like you did … IT MAKES SENSE! And people deep down see it (for a glancing moment). You didn’t say anything nasty, mean or derogatory about JS. You added some pretty factual insight and understanding.
Your comment/explanation made FAR more sense than some fantastic story of whole towns being possessed by demons of Satan, who then persecuted the saints for no apparent reason at all, and against all light, goodness and normal behavior in the world.
FWIW, I’ve been making a regular habit of those comments for about 2 years now, even longer because I used to ask tough questions even in my more TBM days. I’ve never had anything but positive reactions from people that I know of. And if some people have a problem, I don’t know about it. I don’t really care either. I love the Church. I tell people that. They know it. A lot of times it opens up a good discussion where people stretch themselves in their understanding of the Gospel. I find that people like it, as far as I know. People feel good about it all instead of normally half falling asleep in class.
The all important thing that allows this is building our social capital. I make lots of good supportive comments from Church history. A couple weeks ago I added comments in SS about examples of how progressive the Relief Society was for their day. People know I care about the Church, even if I am different. They see me there every week. I smile. I help people when I can. It’s all that normal social stuff. If we are a threat, people will feel that. That is when the walls go up and guards man the weapons turrets. I’m not a threat. I love the Church and want it to succeed.
Very interesting, jmb. Love the rebel streak! This is going to sound cynical but it was my experience. When I resigned, I told the bishop that it was fine for him to tell whoever he felt that he needed to, since I was going to still be attending regularly, because I had always been available for closing prayer, etc. So, without any way to measure it, I’m pretty sure word went around quickly. But there was nothing. No reaction. No one went out of their way to say anything to me, positive or negative, no one really seemed to treat me differently, honestly, no one seemed to care. fwiw, I was pretty happy about this.
otoh, the parents and in-laws went ape-do-do.
So, without trying to sound cynical, I think people may not really care that much what other people in their ward think, as long as they are maintaining their own image of steadfastness. (Using my families reaction as the basis of this comment)
This may be too brutally honest, but when I was TBM, I’m pretty sure I used to feel pretty good about myself when I heard dissenting opinions and I could inwardly congratulate myself for not being “that guy”.
We were being honest today, right?
😳 😳 Welcome to my world, jmb. 
Just for perspective as to why I believe so strongly that the local congregations color our perspectives of the Church radically:
When I was released once from a visible calling of perceived importance, my direct Priesthood leader thanked me for my service and said something to the effect of, “We have gained much as a group because of your unique talents and perspectives.” I took it as a subtle nod to my blogging and my heterodox views – about which he knew only because I wasn’t shy about mentioning them. I always did so softly and gently and non-confrontationally, so it was never a big deal.
swimordie wrote:This may be too brutally honest, but when I was TBM, I’m pretty sure I used to feel pretty good about myself when I heard dissenting opinions and I could inwardly congratulate myself for not being “that guy”.
😆 😆 Yeah, I hate to say it but this was probably me too.@Valoel
Brilliant, love it. You’re exactly right.
@hawkgrrrl
I think your last sentence is the kicker. Deciding what is considered “speculative” even if it is well grounded in historical fact is tricky proposition. Man, I wish I was in your ward!! You would think that for a bay area ward, in a highly educated town it would be more acceptable. Oh well.
@Ray
It seems as though I still have some work in this area. Most of the time I want to say something, but haven’t figured out how to phrase it in a non-threatening way. I hearken back to the Prop 8 days and the endless lessons we had on the topic. Saying something even remotely dissenting on that topic was not viewed favorably. This is probably evidence for your first point since the wards in Berkeley, CA didn’t talk about it all.
One of the most difficult things I have had to deal with in church, is being able to express honest doubts or questions that wouldn’t shake others faith or make people uncomfortable. Every once in a while I would bring ups sincere questions that I thought others might have too and many times it worked out well. After class others would privately tell me how much they appreciated that because they had had those same questions. I recently got a wonderful card in the mail from my RS president, who happens to be my visiting teacher, as well. She wrote how much she appreciated my comments in class because of the wisdom and insights I had gleamed from all my trials. That card meant the world to me. Other times, I would have experiences where a gospel doctrine teacher would humilate me in front of the whole class for asking a certain question. We had a medical doctor who taught GD who was a bit full of himself and prided himself in knowing almost everything. I had been struggling with a faith question and decided to ask it in class. The question was, “How does one know if they are really getting an answer from God in prayer or because you want something so badly you auto-suggestion and answer your own prayer, or if Satan is trying to mis-lead you. Well, I guess I took this teacher by surprise and he had no answer and got very flustered and angry. He suddenly says in a loud voice to me in front of the whole class, “Sister Night’ why did you even join this church in the first place?” Well, everybody was shocked and held their breath. Well, it ticked me off and so I flashed back with, “Because my parents forced me to when I was 8 years old.” Thank goodness the bell rang then to dismiss class because the whole room was filled with the most uncomfortable spirit.” Recently, we had a Sunday School lesson where the teacher wrote on the board a list of names of those who had been very loyal to JS and valiant in the church but then left the church and betrayed JS. William Law was one of them that I knew a little bit about. I simply asked the teacher if he knew why these men had left the church. He did not seem to know and most of the class did not either. I decided against telling what I knew because it might sound like I was against the church. It is my understanding that William Law had a big argument with JS because JS had asked his wife to become one of his plural wives and this had been very upsetting to Sister Law and him. William Law was the owner of the Expositor Newspaper in Nauvoo and he published his beliefs that JS was a polygmast. This upset JS and so he had the expositor destroyed.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Law_(Latter_Day_Saints) Wow Bridget. I just can’t believe that teacher said that to you! My jaw is on the floor. Couldn’t he come up with any kind of loving response? I wish it was more socially acceptable to struggle too. I wish that people could understand that we all have struggles….times of darkness….different sorts of wilderness like journeys. And why can’t we understand that some of them are God orchistrated! And why can’t we greet the struggler with love and understanding and a non-reactive listening ear?
I remember once I went to the bishop to ask some very deep painful doubt about the divinity and reality of the Savior. The bishop said, “that’s not an ecclesiatical issue.”
Not one scripture shared….not a testimony….not even a followup question. Just a big flat closed door. That was the last time I ever went to another member of the church with my painful struggle.
I think if we really look at the gospel of Jesus Christ it is these very characteristics of pride and judgment and arrogance that the Lord is trying to purge from us. Who are we to judge one another? Who are we to think we are better than? Where did we get those notions in the first place?
Thanks for your reply poppyseed. Yeah my husband was pretty shocked too. It made me learn the importance of making each member feel good for asking a question when I was a teacher in various callings. People will not open up if they do not feel safe and then no learning or progress can be made. Just like the Pharisees and Sadducces in Jesus day, we have them in the church today. It is important to separate people from the gospel or we could loose our testimonies. I have also had to learn to forgive people so much more. I had a bishop that really bothered me because he was such a ‘letter of the law’ type of guy. It would drive me nuts when he would speak from the pulpit and say stuff like, “If you would just obey all the commandments, you wouldn’t have any problems.” Well, first of all we know that is not a true statment, but he seemed so cold and heartless. He also made my 13 year old son cry once after an interview with him and my son would not tell me what it was about. So, I wrote him a private letter telling him what was bothering me. He never called or replied back and I waited 3 months. I was pretty close to leaving the church at that time anyway, but, I prayed about it and I remembered a scripture in the D& C about if someone has offended you to go to them privately and try and talk it out. So, I made an appointment with this Bishop and was very nervous as I went in as he always seemed so intimidating to me. I asked him if he had gotten my letter and he said yes. I then asked him why he never contacted me and he said he did not realize that I wanted a reply. Well, it was obvious that he is not good in getting social ques. But, an amazing thing happened and he opened up to me about how this calling is about the worst calling he could ever get because he really hates socializing and being with people. He shared how when he was a little boy, he was thin and gangly and played baseball so badly. He was made fun of by his peers and instructors and that started his journey of not feeling comfortable around people. It ended up being a wonderful one on one and he treated me so good after that. He was my best adovcate as a GD teacher after that too. So, I have learned that all of us are just screwed up children in adult bodies doing the best we can and need to help each other.
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