- This topic is empty.
-
Posts
-
He has been asking some mainstream Christians about this and getting some answers. Now, he wants to know how people with a Mormon background would answer this. Could you all help me here? Here are his questions and how he would answer them but wants to know how my lds groups would answer. Thanks, Bridget 1. What do I as a father, owe my children?
His own answer as a father of three children is: “I owe them my love (a verb-meaning to show them loving kindness; an active interest in their happiness and well being). When they are young, vulnerable, and ill equipped to take care of themselves, it means giving them shelter, food, and clothing as well as nurturing and protecting them. As adults, it means giving them counsel while respecting their more mature capacity to make their own decisions. I continue to strive helping them where needed so they can achieve happiness and have their best welfare at heart.’
So, that led him to his second question:
2. Since God’s preferred title is “Father,” does He owe us anything?
My husband says some Christians suggest that God owes us nothing. They consider it heresy to say otherwise. He thinks that these Christians take this perspective because they want to strongly acknowledge that man is saved by grace, not by works. They conclude that God owes man nothing. But, is that so? Is that perspective in agreement with scripture?
bridget_night wrote:
1. What do I as a father, owe my children?
I think your husband has it about right. I would put it as “no matter what happens, my door is always open”.
In a way, I think that’s what God owes us as well.
1. What as a father do I owe my children? I owe them an environment which helps them develop self-esteem.
2. What does God our Father owe us?
LOTS. He owes us an just world eventually. He owes us integrity to keep the promises He makes to us (if you can distringuish which are HIS, and which are made up by men to get you to do things). And He makes a lot of promises in the scriptures.
That’s where I take issue with King Benjamin’s Discourse where King B. makes it sound like we owe God everything and He owes us nothing. This is similar to the stance I PERCEIVE the Church to take with its members as well. But I don’t believe it. There are obligations on both sides.
I like your husband’s answers, and I think the answers are the same for both questions: 1) Love – real love (which includes the elements of charity – like LONG-suffering patience – described in 1 Corinthians 13):That is the constant – what we owe our children exactly the same. 2) Individualized support AND freedom to become whomever they want to become:It’s SO easy to provide support to become what we want them to become; it’s much harder to balance support for whom they want to become, and that’s where a commitment to real, true freedom (true agency) enters the picture. Balancing the support to succeed with the freedom to fail (and never removing either) is not easy. This is Very helpful. Thanks for all your replies and I will get back to you. bridget_night wrote:1. What do I as a father, owe my children?
While they are young…I owe them a home, food, clothing, education, lessons from my experience, and love so they know they are special and have hope they can succeed in this world as they grow up. As they get older, and more on their own, I owe them less the physical things of providing for them, and more the emotional and spiritual things that they need to continue to succeed in this world. Love is the one thing that never changes, no matter how old they get.
bridget_night wrote:2. Since God’s preferred title is “Father,” does He owe us anything?
I pattern my job of father after my Perfect Heavenly Father. There are real differences though, that practically can’t exactly translate. But I believe Heavenly Father has given me life, hope through the Only Begotten, and teachings from the church, scriptures and prophets. When I was younger, He made it known to me He was there through small things. As I get older, He owes it less to keep reaffirming it, I think He owes me little more than what he’s given me, but I think He owes me justice and mercy in the Eternities. I will always be an unprofitable son to Him, but I have that hope He still loves me nonetheless.
1. What do I as a father, owe my children? My answer: An upbringing. I have seen abandoned or neglected children, it’s not good. With love comes discipline, and with both of these comes education, not just of the school variety, but teaching them to become decent human beings. I don’t think a child should grow up either unloved or undisciplined, or indeed unsupported or unprotected (both of these are forms of love, I believe). Oh, and not to screw them up too much like many parents do!
2. Since God’s preferred title is “Father,” does He owe us anything?
I can’t answer for someone else!
In theory though, as others say, he owes us nothing. But like a good father, he perhaps would like to see us well brought up. People respond differently though.
I think like most fathers, it would have to take something truly evil for us to be fully alienated from him.
bridget_night wrote:1. What do I as a father, owe my children?
His own answer as a father of three children is: “I owe them my love (a verb-meaning to show them loving kindness; an active interest in their happiness and well being). When they are young, vulnerable, and ill equipped to take care of themselves, it means giving them shelter, food, and clothing as well as nurturing and protecting them. As adults, it means giving them counsel while respecting their more mature capacity to make their own decisions. I continue to strive helping them where needed so they can achieve happiness and have their best welfare at heart.’
So, that led him to his second question:
2. Since God’s preferred title is “Father,” does He owe us anything?
My husband says some Christians suggest that God owes us nothing. They consider it heresy to say otherwise. He thinks that these Christians take this perspective because they want to strongly acknowledge that man is saved by grace, not by works. They conclude that God owes man nothing. But, is that so? Is that perspective in agreement with scripture?
1) I suppose for me it boils down to the word “owe.” Essentially, what am I contractually obligated to provide for my children? I think the answer is financial support. I must ensure that they are fed, clothed, and housed. I know that they NEED much more but inherent in the word “owe” is that the receiving party has a right to expect fulfillment of the obligation. Am I really obligated to provide for their every need? Is that even possible or wise? If I owe my children love and fail to give it to them, should they be able to sue in court for the financial equivalent of that withheld love?
2) As a TBM I believed that God did owe me certain things. I felt that I had made a concerted effort to follow his plan and that he was “bound” when we do as he says. Because of some tragic (and internally tumultuous) personal experiences, I have had to disassociate God’s love for me and my personal behavior.
Now I feel that God has already discharged his duty to me. He has sent me to this world where there are all the ingredients for life. There is air to breath and I have lungs to breathe it. There is food to eat and I have a mouth and digestive tract to eat it. There is beauty to be seen and I have eyes to see it. There are mysteries to ponder and I have a mind to ponder it.
Additionally I believe that God will hold his children close after this is all over. I believe that he will love us all as much as we allow him to. The idea of the Trinity and God himself coming down among us to pay the price for our failings if we would but allow him to carry our burden is a great metaphor for this love.
I am fully aware that some of Heavenly Father’s children do not enjoy strong lungs, digestive system, functioning eyes, or a clear mind. Some die in infancy, others in utero. I have come to believe that God allows these things for various possible reasons, but that they do not reflect a lesser love. I believe that when the time comes he will hold each of these children close, sorrow with them over their pain and rejoice with them for their joys. I do not feel comfortable saying that God will then owe it to them to make up for the former deprivations, that he must then provide compensation.
I further believe that he will then help each of us to become our ultimate selves over the course of future eons. It is possible that there may be limits to what I may become, but I know that God will not love me less than my brother because my potential/destiny is to reach one level and my brother may be capable of an entirely different level.
These things reflect what makes sense to me in my mind and heart. I can find scriptures to support my ideas, but I am also aware that there are scriptures that go against these things. I don’t let it bother me. The scriptures are a fascinating story of other people’s journey with God – but they will always be secondary to my own journey with my Father.
I am convinced that God does not owe me the following:
A pain free or semi charmed life.
A compensatory reward for my sufferings (to be lifted up higher than my brethren in the hereafter in compensation for any inequalities suffered here).
To smite my enemies and condemn those that have hurt me (although this may sound like justice, they too are His children).
A preconceived notion of heaven. (God does not owe me pearly gates, streets made out of gold, 70 virgins, eternal progression in the celestial kingdom, or any other fixed and expected view of the afterlife)
Even after all this – God is
notlimited by my expectations. Either I imagine and hope for things that have no basis in reality (in which case, it is a moot point), or God really is manifesting himself to my heart and mind in a certain fashion. Yet even if the later is true and God is whispering tenderness to my soul – that would in no way limit him from manifesting Himself differently to someone else and for those other manifestations to be just as authentically divine as anything that I experience. In summary, I believe that God would theoretically owe something to us humans (either as created beings or as literal offspring) but that he already provides for us in ways that altogether overwhelm, overpower, and defy any obligation he may have. I just don’t feel that our relationship with our Father can be adequately describes in terms like, “duty”, “obligation”, “expectation”, or “requirement.” For some these terms may even be the antithesis of their walk with God.
Similarly – I hope to provide for my children (in my own imperfect way) love and support that would far surpass any claim that they may have upon me.
“The attitude that life owes us something, if not everything, encourages life to thwart our endeavours.” – some grumpy English musician
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.