My least favorite quote

[Anonymous]

bridget_night wrote:

Thanks Ray. I do believe it is important to get our information right. None of us would like what we have said or written to be mis-quoted or taken out of context.

No, you’re totally fine. You did not take it out of context, or mis-quote anyone. I mean it was printed in the Improvement Era! You have stated the quote as a representation of what was printed in official church material. Nothing wrong with that on your end.

The problem is that that message was not sanctioned by the Brethren, and in fact, was stated by the Brethren to be an erroneous representation of church position even within its own material.

I think it’s a very important lesson to learn here, namely that even official church material does not necessarily represent the message the Brethren are really trying to convey.

[Anonymous]

Quote:

The problem is that that message was not sanctioned by the Brethren, and in fact, was stated by the Brethren to be an erroneous representation of church position even within its own material.

Based on my original post, it should not surprise anyone that I too dislike this quote. Unfortunately, this seems to be one of those areas where church culture has gained a life of its own and is held to the same standard as doctrine.

Quote:

We must turn all this about. We cannot serve God and mammon. Whose side are we on? When the prophet speaks the debate is over.

– N. Eldon Tanner, “‘The Debate Is Over’,” Ensign, Aug 1979

Having this quote repeated by the first counselor in the First Presidency and printed in the official church magazine carries a lot of weight in our culture and gives it tacit approval. So, while I agree with Ray that I would like this quote to go away, I don’t hold any hope that it will.

SMiLe

[Anonymous]

Certainly Church leaders have made statements, and continue to, that should have been thought out better.

On the other hand, one of my favorite conference talks, which goes a long way in distinguishing between the gospel and the Church, has never even been read/seen/heard by many. It was a talk by Elder Poelman back in 1984…here’s a link. I think it’s very beautiful and to the point.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QcM7koDc-jg

Unfortunately, the brethren thought it a bit “meaty” and marched his butt back in the tabernacle the very next day…had him re-give a very edited (that means changed completely) version of the talk, added a “cough track” and that version became the version that was published in the Ensign and entered into Church archives. Fortunately, people were beginning to have VCR’s in 1984 and the talk is preserved.

I think he makes some wonderful points that are much more meaningful than short little quotes that we seem to hang onto.

I thought someone might enjoy it. My 2 cents..

[Anonymous]

I don’t have any particularly good feelings about that exact quote, SMiLe (mostly because it is SO easy to abuse and mis-apply) – but it’s also a very different quote than how it usually is re-stated – and it is true at a fundamental level. There is a HUGE difference between, “When the Prophet speaks, the debate is over,” and, “When the brethren speak, the thinking is done.” The mutation of the first to the latter is instructive – and very typical of what happens to far too many people.

Simply put, when the leader of any organization speaks in his/her authoritative voice, the debate really is over. Individual members of that organization can continue to believe whatever they choose to believe, but the “debate” is over. Reasoned discussions can occur in most cases among individuals, especially privately, but the “debate” is over. If that wasn’t the case, no organization would accomplish anything, as production time would give way to debate time. Think about it: Water cooler time is not productive time – even though it is fine in small doses.

That is very different than forbidding individual thinking or eliminating disagreement entirely – especially based on a loosely- and ill-defined term like “the brethren”.

I go with the preponderance of statements, in most cases, and the minority opinion in some others – based on whatever I feel the Spirit has whispered to me. I just don’t waste time “debating” things (trying to convince others of the superiority of my viewpoint) that directly contradict what the current Prophet says. I don’t like losing battles, and I’m not arrogant enough to assume that I see the long-term vision and implications of things better than the Prophet does. That doesn’t mean I agree with everything the current Prophet has said in my lifetime – but it does mean I don’t openly try to turn those things I see differently into a debate.

I just don’t have the energy or inclination to do that. I have WAY more important ways to spend my time – like blogging.

[Anonymous]

Hi Ray,

I want to be sure to clear up a possible misunderstanding. I agree with what you have stated and would never personally debate something a prophet has said with another member. In fact, I wasn’t even thinking that as I posted the quote. I have spent so much time debating myself over issues that I some times wonder if I am mentally okay. So, just so you know, I read that quote and immediately assumed that it was the mental debate that it was referring to and never even considered that it applied otherwise. Sorry about that…

SMiLe

[Anonymous]

SMiLe wrote:

Having this quote repeated by the first counselor in the First Presidency and printed in the official church magazine carries a lot of weight in our culture and gives it tacit approval. So, while I agree with Ray that I would like this quote to go away, I don’t hold any hope that it will.

SMiLe

You’re right, it likely won’t any time soon. And I agree with you that it has tacit approval. The fact that some people deny this is quite humorous to me. All one has to do is consider giving a talk in Sacrament meeting in which one disagrees publicly with the brethren and see what happens. However, it is primarily cultural, and I don’t believe that the brethren hold themselves in as high esteem as the members do.

[Anonymous]

It’s cool, SMiLe – and I know personally, for a fact, that “the Brethren” don’t esteem the quote as much as “the membership” does.

Oh, and I heard that quote in HP Group in the not too distant past – on the same day someone quoted Elder Wirthlin’s analogy of God’s beautiful orchestra in a Sac Mtg talk. Rich irony, no? 😆

[Anonymous]

Also, consider SMile that you yourself have perpetuated the quote even further by bringing it up (though I understand why). How on earth can we make it “go away” if we continue to believe that it really represents the position of the brethren? Since I don’t currently hear any of the Brethren preaching this message, I am left to conclude that it is us (i.e. the membership) who won’t let it go away, not the brethren. Unless you expect the brethren to get up and denounce it (which will never happen)!

In this vein, I would like to point out that if we listened more to what the brethren are saying now, rather than biasing it or basing it on past statements, we might find that they are sending a different message.

[Anonymous]

SMiLe wrote:

We are taught in the church that the words of the prophet are on the same level as scripture. This is cultural rather than doctrinal, but that doesn’t get you very far in Sunday School class or EQ. Even our lesson manuals for the youth teach them that general conference reports are scripture because they come from the apostles and prophet. However, the prophets themselves will tell you that they are not always prophesying. …So, how do we know which is which?

There is a statement in the book “Shaken Faith Syndrome” that I really like. It says the responsibility falls upon us (each individually) to determine for ourselves (by the spirit) when the prophets are speaking for God, and when we should personally follow their counsel.

President McKay spoke on the plan of agency often, and I think this process is best explained as being part of that plan. We all must choose for ourselves, and be responsible for our own choices.

[Author]

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