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Hey everyone, I haven’t posted in a while, but I still check back here nearly everyday. I hate give a negative post, but I just needed to type and get my thoughts out. I can count the number of days I’ve missed at church in my life on two hands. I was baptized at eight. Gained a personal testimony somewhere around 18, just before I went to Rick’s College, where I was on fire. Then left on my mission a year later. I first started questioning things at the MTC–I thought the part in the BofM where Isaiah foresees JS and MH bringing the transcript to Prof Anton was a little to suspect. I voiced these concerns to an instructor and he gave me some great advice: don’t ignore the issues that trouble you, because one day you’ll be able to help someone else through these issues. This was of course pre-internet and during my mission, and I was focused on improving my testimony in other ways, and I put the issue aside. I had several experiences talking to other religious people on my mission who were sure theirs was the correct church, and I would try and get some of my companions to imagine–what if they were right? How would we know? They didn’t like that–“Elder, that’s impossible to even think about, because I KNOW ours is true.” I even remember hearing other missionaries talk about times when they thought, well, what if it’s not true? Followed up by “no, I know it is, so something else must be the reason such and such is happening.” Of course everyone has questions once in a while. It always made me curious, why do they know? How can one know? I experienced severe cognitive dissonance the last 6 mos of my mission because I didn’t understand how any significant amount of people were ever to experience conversion into the Lord’s true church, when I could only baptize one the entirety of my mission (which was above average for my mission.) I became pretty depressed and told my MP I wasn’t sure the Bofm was true. A month later he asked me to give a talk at Zone Conference about my testimony of the BofM. So, I had about three weeks to get a testimony of the book! My talk was less than genuine, but quite enthusiastic and delivered with all the confidence I could muster
Anyway, enough about my mission. I’m glad I went, and If my son or daughter goes, I will be happy for them. I went on to college, where I honestly don’t recall anything about my classroom experience and everything about trying quite unsuccessfully to find a girlfriend. However, in my Junior year, I found a wonderful person I could relate to in many ways and knew we would be married soon. It turned out to be a rocky courting, and we broke up more than once. During one of the breakups, I moved away, and worked at an internship, trying to recover from all the drama. As would me my experience for the next 10 years I was in a large ward where people went who were just passing through on their way through college. No sense of community, just faces in a crowd. I didn’t feel a sense of closeness with the Lord and determined I might need to face some of the issues with the church I had put on the backburner. For one, what was the deal with JS and freemasonry? (How the heck a random person in rural Japan knew about the connection between Mormons and Masons still leaves me scratching my head.) I bought a book that I knew was Anti, “One nation under gods” at a used bookstore. I read the first chapter, and learned about JS’s treasure digging. I stopped there because I knew if I was going to be introduced to a dozen new issues, I needed a source I could trust. But there weren’t any. I shortly became engaged to the girlfriend I had left back at college and we were married shortly thereafter. I threw the book away and focused on becoming a good priesthood holder and husband.
Ten years went by, which included graduation, my first job, my first son, a career shift, going back to college, my first daughter, and now medical school. What it was that caused me to revisit church history problems, I still don’t remember. I think it may have been wanting to introduce my neighbor to the church, but thinking, “why would I bring her into the church when there’s so much weird stuff there?” I think I had made up my mind to finally take my MTC instructor’s advice and work my way through things. After all, surely all the great leaders of the church had already done this. I read Rough Stone Rolling based on a years earlier recommendation from a former Bishop. I thought it would probably be a lightweight apologetic of his life, with some minor issues addressed. But it was a safe and reportedly well balanced book that I thought I could trust. It wasn’t the polygamy or the treasure digging or any of the big issues that hung me up. I never even made it that far into the book! It was simply how exteremely different the narrative was to what I had learned. There was so much human influence and bias and cultural explanation for the early development of the church. I had opened myself up long ago to the possibility that the church may be “not true.” But it took a while for me to realize that I would ever admit it to myself even when it was staring me right in the face. I always assumed I would just suppress those issues like I always had. But for some reason, I decided to let it sink in. I soon took the red pill and down the rabbit hole I went. Despite the inner peace I finally felt, I have been bruised and broken ever since I made the leap. My wife was supportive at first. After all, my attitude was pretty positive. I didn’t want her to leave the church. I didn’t even want to leave it myself. I had quickly passed through Fowler stage 4 and into stage 5. Record time too! I was engaged as I had ever been in a church that I saw quite differently now. But my problems started when I decided I was going to help make positive changes. I just don’t have it in me it turns out. I taught some EQ lessons I was quite proud of, and were recieved well by others. But the anxiety it created in me came out in my conversations with my wife, and she would ask me why I had to be that way. Why did I have to keep investigating the church the way I was, when the real fruit of study came from general conf talks, reading the BofM and keeping in mind the simple truths of the gospel. I kindly explained to her that it wasn’t a choice and if I was obsessed with studying history, it was because I thirsted for the “real” truth and couldn’t let it go just yet. Sometimes I would explain it in a much more negative way too. It soon became something I was doing “to her” and after some good talks with some friends at school, I realized I was being too negative and needed to be more supportive and positive. So I did that for her sake for a while. But I still needed to talk about the church with people who were more liberally minded. I soon looked up the Community of Christ church and decided to pay them a visit. I LOVED my experience there. The adult sunday school class was the drug I longed for. So open and honest. Well taught and scholarly. A bit confusing at times. When I got back, my wife was hurt very badly. I was stupid enough to “change churches” although I had no intention of leaving Mormonism. She called an told my mom, which was the first she had heard of me questioning the church, which began a firestorm of involvement from my family, which I have yet to recover from.
I never went back to that church for my wife’s sake, but things have never recovered. Whenever they get better, they immediately get worse, because she realizes how she’s lost everything she ever wanted in marriage. I had to promise that I would never visit any forums, stop reading blogs, stop listening to Mormon Stories and focus on building a positive relationship with the church. But I felt increasingly trapped and increasingly negative about the church I needed to be positive about for my wife’s sake. And btw, don’t get the impression that everything was peachy with my wife before the church, because it most certainly wasn’t. That pretty much brings me to today, or at least close to now. My relationship to the church changes about every week: I thought the church was Satan incarnate, I thought the church was ok, I thought my wife was Satan incarnate, I thought I was Satan incarnate, I feel sympathy for my wife, I feel pity for myself, I love the church, I hate the church, the church hates me, the church is a great place to raise kids, the church is where Satan wants me to raise my kids. All I know now is that I am making church miserable for my wife and she want me to stop going. She also wants to stop being married to me. She feels for me and wants me to find peace and have a relationship with God in my own way. She feels bad for calling me out as a sinner whenever I try to explain that I really did have a testimony at one point, and also feels bad for telling me I never had a real testimony and how could I do this to her.
We went to marriage counseling last week for the first time. It was through LDS family services. We were late because we couldn’t find the place. We assumed we would still get our 45 min in. So we opened up with him and kept it brief and to the point (we had practiced it on the 30 min drive over there.) Then he explained to me that the best place to read outside of the scriptures was the books published by general authorities or stuff on LDS.org. 20 mins in he ended the session, leaving my wife and I very unsatisfied and having opened up the issues we try to keep bottled up in order to keep peace w/ each other (because we really do get along quite well when the church doesn’t get in the way–I understand I’m not phrasing that fairly). So the 30 minute drive back home was terrible. But funny enough, we had a good conversation on the couch for the rest of the night and made up. It was awesome, genuine and uplifting. We grew extremely close.
Then morning came and she brought up issues from the past and told me she could never feel safe with me. Ever. She told me she doesn’t want me going to church with her, made me a bed in the guest room. I don’t know what to do tomorrow. I wanted to go to church (why? I must be insane.) But I had also contrasted my recent experience w/ church with my experience at the CofC and told her I missed that level of openness. So my mom got a call again (I don’t know if she’s telling on me???) and asked if I was planning on switching churches and that she had tried going to lots of churches before she converted to mormonism and that they’re all false. “Mom, no, I just liked the atmosphere, and I don’t plan on leaving the church and I know they’re not true, and no they aren’t responsible for teaching me about JS’s plural wives…” Well, she feels responsible for all this because she does some work for her business on Sundays once in a while, and why was she such a bad mother……..Her week is now ruined and I feel an insane amount of guilt for being the bad son. “You were my favorite son.” She won’t be getting any sleep anytime soon. “I can’t believe I’m losing my son.” Neither will I. The middle way just isn’t working for me. Nothing is. I know it’s likely my fault, that I didn’t handle it well, that I didn’t love my wife enough to find a better way to deal with this all from the beginning. But right now, I just feel anger and hate toward the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. I just want to get along in the church as a non-believer, but it isn’t working. I just want to get along in my marriage as a non-believer, but it isn’t working either. I just want peace and to be happy. I want my wife to be happy. And my mom and dad and siblings. I wish the church did a better job at accepting people like me. But really, the membership and leadership has been fine. It’s the church working through my family that has been the problem. It doesn’t matter that I am trying to be a better person because I’m trying to do it outside of the fold, which means it will fail. And I am reminded of that regularly. Wish I knew how to handle it better. Don’t know what to do know. Don’t know where to turn. Just happy I can post this long a__ story somewhere. It helps.
P.S. Just read through my post…I think I might be clinically depressed 😯 So sorry that your life is complicated right now. Try the counselor again. If it isn’t a good fit, find another counselor. Keep looking. Maybe the marriage is salvageable .. Maybe not. But just taking time and effort to figure out the dynamic within the marriage will help you and your wife. I found doing some reading about boundaries was helpful for me personally. It helped me realize that iit wasn’t my job to keep everyone happy. Nor my job to tell people what they want to hear. It was my job to be honest .. In as kind and compassionate way as I am able.
Hang in there
Mr. Richard, I’m sorry about your situation. Is there anyone in your ward or stake that has similar views as you? If you listen closely to the questions & responses in SS & PH, you can get a feel of who you can trust & who you can’t.
I have developed several contacts in my ward who I can discuss anything with. They can do the same with me & we
know that we have each others confidence. It may take time to develop. But, it is worth it. Please realize: you are not alone.
Many of us have been through similar situations & made improvements in our lives & stayed in the church.
You said,
Quote:Gained a personal testimony somewhere around 18, …Quote:I would try to concentrate on how you got your personal testimony at 18 & try to get some degree of a testimony again as an adult. It doesn’t have to be perfect & work from there.
Is there anything in the scriptures that inspire you? Is there any other books or scholars that inspire you? It doesn’t have to be
in the church. Maybe try to include you wife in this too.
Regarding depression, you won’t get a good diagnosis here. (I don’t think any of us are a Psychiatrist.)
I wish you the best on your journey. Keep us posted.
I always recommend a cost benefit analysis in this situation. Look at the cost of doubt and uncertainty on your life, and marriage. If you can’t handle that cost, then look at being an outwardly devout Mormon as the cost of your relationship. It’s not easy, but people pay lots of different prices for the sake of their marriage. This might be the cost of yours. Sometimes just being able to vent or get your feelings out in words is therapeutic. I hope writing this helped you. I am not a psychiatrist so I can’t diagnose whether or not you are clinically depressed. I wouldn’t give up on counseling, though, but maybe this one isn’t the right one (but you were late – perhaps there were other appointments or other pressing matters). You clearly have a lot of angst, and I’m sorry that anyone has to go through this. More normal advice is take it slow, which I think you are, don’t dump all at once, which I think you haven’t, and focus on what you do believe, which I think you can do better at. You apparently have basic Christian beliefs and some Mormon beliefs. Cling to those and put the rest aside. If there are specific things you are struggling with (priesthood ban, Joseph Smith’s polygamy, etc.) this is a safe place to discuss them.
I like what SD said about finding others to talk to. I have a friend at church who stopped believing but still goes for now to Sacrament. We usually go to breakfast after that and I come back sometimes for priesthood and he goes homes. Anyways, just having one other person that gets you, who gives you the ” this is BS” look when someone says something completely false at church but you know that most in the congregation think the same, is just what I need to get through the meetings and I can leave and not have to discuss it with my wife and know that it is not just me. I have found others at church and amount family that feel the same way as me and it just makes it better. I live in Oregon and I believe it can happen other places also. Mr. Richard, Welcome to Stay LDS. I am an intellectual that has stayed in the Church and I finally feel happier than I have been in awhile, although I still have my gripes and complaints. I don’t always feel accepted in the Church because I have broadened my horizons as a cultural anthropologist and see things from a different perspective. I also understand that the way the gospel is taught at church is generally taught with the expectation that people are idiots. I will focus on one of your issues only since you have a lot of rants, which is okay since that is the way you get them out. You wrote Quote:But I still needed to talk about the church with people who were more liberally minded. I soon looked up the Community of Christ church and decided to pay them a visit. I LOVED my experience there. The adult sunday school class was the drug I longed for. So open and honest. Well taught and scholarly. A bit confusing at times. When I got back, my wife was hurt very badly. I was stupid enough to “change churches” although I had no intention of leaving Mormonism. She called an told my mom, which was the first she had heard of me questioning the church, which began a firestorm of involvement from my family, which I have yet to recover from.
I think it is great that you are learning about the community of Christ. I have learned from Baptists, Buddhists, and Jehovah’s Witnesses, Catholics, the Anglican Church, and the Evangelical Protestants. I think it helps to have an intellectual testimony as well as a spiritual one. We are dualistic beings, and have to fee our intellect as well as our spirits. My best friends outside the church are Agnostic and Buddhist respectively.
One thing that helps is to separate Jesus, the Gospel, and the Church, and then after you have separated the issues to link them together. I will say things to myself like I believe in Jesus just as my Protestant, and Catholic brothers and sisters, but I may interpret his Atonement, Mission, and existence different then them.
I also remind people that the Church does not have a monopoly on truth or the Spirit. The Church is a Service organization that strives to get people to serve each other and their fellow man and to convey the Love of Jesus with others. Service in the Church should not be overwhelming and it should not take priority over our own well-being and our families.
The third thing that Ii compartmentalize is the Gospel. The gospel is taught in the Bible, and the Book of Mormon and the Doctrine and Covenants and the Pearl ofGreat Price. The first two principles of the gospel are believed by all Christians in-or outside of the LDS Church. Baptism is believed by many but varies. Being a good Christian is taught by all Christians. Believing in Christ as the Savior is taught by all Christians.
Then there are the Mormon issues, which set us apart. These issues and questions are appendages to what JS himself taught as the most important thing that Jesus atoned, died, and rose again the third day and everything else are appendages unto it. I can differ with the Book of Mormon model of where it supposedly took place. I can see how the Godhead can be confusing even in Mormon Scripture. I can see how Exaltation can be hard to swallow for both Mormons and non-Mormons. I can see how there are many issues in the gospel that may not appear as clean cut as they are taught perhaps in Primary or in the Mission field. I also see how Historic Christianity struggled with similar issues and why a “true” Church has to be maintained even if sometimes it appears to be superficially maintained by dumb lambs that don’t appear to question anything, when Joseph Smith questioned What Church to Join. He didn’t worry about what church he attended, he worried about which one to join for his own salvation.
I won’t babble anymore. I just think as an adult we get to the point – to realize what battles we will fight, what things don’t matter, and what matters overall. I hope what I write helps and brings you some type of consolation.
I empathize. This is a very sad story to me. Sent from my SCH-I545 using Tapatalk
Sounds like it’s been pretty rough for you and unfortunately none of us here has a magic pill that will make things work out. But know that we are all pulling for you and hoping for the best. Thank you all. Just having support can be so helpful sometimes. Thanks also for the advice–amateurparent Quote:
So sorry that your life is complicated right now. Try the counselor again. If it isn’t a good fit, find another counselor. Keep looking. Maybe the marriage is salvageable .. Maybe not. But just taking time and effort to figure out the dynamic within the marriage will help you and your wife.I found doing some reading about boundaries was helpful for me personally. It helped me realize that iit wasn’t my job to keep everyone happy. Nor my job to tell people what they want to hear. It was my job to be honest .. In as kind and compassionate way as I am able.
We are going to try another counselor. I’ve met him before and feel good about him. About borders, I think I need to learn more about that especially now that my whole family is involved again
🙄 Border control.Quote:Mr. Richard, I’m sorry about your situation. Is there anyone in your ward or stake that has similar views as you?
Maybe. There is one sister who wears pants and has a feminist bent, and one brother who seems pretty liberal. I am kind of a timid person, but will have to make better friends with them. There’s also my bishop, who doesn’t share my views, but is well read and knows all my issues. He’s nice and we get along great. He has been my lifeline in the church. Once I get my problems to level out a bit, I need to talk to him more regularly just for the therapeutic effect.
Quote:You said,
Quote:Gained a personal testimony somewhere around 18, …
I would try to concentrate on how you got your personal testimony at 18 & try to get some degree of a testimony again as an adult. It doesn’t have to be perfect & work from there.Is there anything in the scriptures that inspire you? Is there any other books or scholars that inspire you? It doesn’t have to be
in the church. Maybe try to include you wife in this too.
Thanks, I always need reminders about the positive things. My personal testimony at 18 was one part: the power of conversion in turning people’s hearts toward god and reaping good outcomes in life, and one part: “the scriptures are so powerful–if this is true, it is the most beautiful thing in the world.” The last part was undermined by my general disbelief in the literalness of those stories, but the first part remains. I also believe in the power of prayer, blessings, even my patriarchal blessing (interesting related note–I read mine for the first time since my FC, worried that it would no longer have meaning to me and that I would lose one more thing. It was completely the opposite. I found much more meaning in it than I had before.) I also believe in being financially conservative, charity, following the spirit of the law, and repentance. I used to think I believed in Mormonism as an example of seeking out all truth and being accepting of all people, but a recent trip to a Unitarian church proved that we are nowhere near as good at it as they.
Quote:Regarding depression, you won’t get a good diagnosis here. (I don’t think any of us are a Psychiatrist.)
I wish you the best on your journey. Keep us posted.
Thanks for the concern. I read a quick bit on depression and realized I am just situationally depressed. I find school to be quite difficult right now in light of my marriage problems, but I am functional and have peer support.
Quote:I always recommend a cost benefit analysis in this situation. Look at the cost of doubt and uncertainty on your life, and marriage. If you can’t handle that cost, then look at being an outwardly devout Mormon as the cost of your relationship. It’s not easy, but people pay lots of different prices for the sake of their marriage. This might be the cost of yours.
SD–I think about this a lot. I don’t know how I could ever do that. Maybe I don’t love my wife enough. That’s what she believes. It is complicated I guess. On the one hand, it may be too late to convince anyone that I am anything but faking. My wife is extremely negative anytime I try to convince her I want the church to be a part of my life. When I volunteer to go to the temple with her, she feels like I would be insulting the lord. I have tried to do some version of being an outward member, but I always end up saying something negative (no matter how hard I try!) I think if I’m to be successful at this I need other outlets. Last week, my wife wouldn’t allow me to come to church with her because she needed to create a sacred space with no negativity. (and fwiw, I’m not blatantly negative or critical, ie, I don’t roll my eyes and recite lines from the CES letter to try and kill faith, I just give an honest opinion–if the speaker said she doesn’t drink coffee because she wants to see her family in heaven, I tell my wife that I disagree with that, which she usually follows up with “so you probably think it’s okay to drink too?”) So I went to a Unitarian church. It was a great experience, perfect for my level of belief. I went to the last hour of our church and just talked to people in the halls. I was much more positive because I wasn’t just trying not to be negative, I actually had something else to fill the void with. It’s a tricky game though, because she keeps asking where I’m going to go to church this Sunday. I know she wants me to say “of course, our church.” But I am not interested in going right now. I will gladly go for her, but I will have to try EXTRA hard to be positive. (Game of chess)
Quote:You clearly have a lot of angst, and I’m sorry that anyone has to go through this. More normal advice is take it slow, which I think you are, don’t dump all at once, which I think you haven’t, and focus on what you do believe, which I think you can do better at. You apparently have basic Christian beliefs and some Mormon beliefs. Cling to those and put the rest aside. If there are specific things you are struggling with (priesthood ban, Joseph Smith’s polygamy, etc.) this is a safe place to discuss them.
Thanks DJ. I used your advice in the past and it is good advice. Like I said above, I need to work on what I believe. Though I’m at a point where I no longer believe JS was a prophet or the other keystone tenets of Mormonsim, I do believe in many of its basic teachings. I don’t care about being a middle way mormon or making change anymore, I just want to find a way to make going to church not so torturous. I just want to get by. For my wife. Also my daughter (who is 3 and has already baptized all her dolls and herself and wants to be a missionary when she grows up–to each their own
🙂 ) My son hates church, but I guess that’s normal at a young age. I wish our primary program was better–more focused on teaching kids good principles and playing learning games and less focused on brainwashing.Quote:I live in Oregon and I believe it can happen other places also.
:clap: I am from Oregon, though I have only been to Springfield to go to the $1.50 theater when I visit my in-laws.Quote:I think it is great that you are learning about the community of Christ. I have learned from Baptists, Buddhists, and Jehovah’s Witnesses, Catholics, the Anglican Church, and the Evangelical Protestants. I think it helps to have an intellectual testimony as well as a spiritual one. We are dualistic beings, and have to fee our intellect as well as our spirits. My best friends outside the church are Agnostic and Buddhist respectively.
I agree that it is important we learn from other truths, especially if we take truth so seriously. Interestingly in my experience, the two things that get me into the most trouble with other believers, esp my wife and family, is when I tell them I have lost faith in the brethren as an unfailing guide, and when I tell them I had a good experience at another church. It proves to me that the church has zero tolerance for personal grown or exploration outside of its guidelines. When I talk to my wife about raising our kids, her biggest concern (and that of my parents) is that I will confuse the kids. I try and explain that while that may happen, they will also benefit from learning from parents how to get along with people who believe differently. (Argument not received well btw)
Quote:I empathize. This is a very sad story to me.
cwald, thank you.
Quote:Sounds like it’s been pretty rough for you and unfortunately none of us here has a magic pill that will make things work out. But know that we are all pulling for you and hoping for the best.
[/quote][/quote]
Thank you too.
Things have yet to settle down. The pattern continues. My wife and I will have a great talk and feel loved by each other. The next day out of the blue, I’ll get a nasty text from her. Then we make up again. And now that she has called my parents again (which I have strongly counseled her not to do) my family is involved. I got a text from my dad telling me to man up and start being a good husband and father. This is the dad who is the most understanding. He also had a bit of a tendency to be a gospel bully though. I am left wondering if I am just being selfish. If I am, I don’t know how not to be. I feel like I have spiritual needs that are not being met. But in the process, I am disrupting my marriage. Based on the state of my marriage, I’m not sure I can have both spiritual nourishment AND a good marriage. I also wonder if I really am being a bad parent by abandoning my faith. I don’t mind if my kids are raised Mormon, but I just can’t stand the one-sidedness of the teachings they recieve. Everything they are taught is Truth. That’s going to confuse them more than anything, as it did me. I still have a hard time explaining this to my wife, because there are so many happy families in the church (sometimes an illusion, but speaking from personal experience, mine was a good one though not close to perfect.) Therefore staying in is “good” and leaving is “uncertain.” Now when I attend, it’s like a liberal attending a tea party rally (which it kind of is anyway.) Just a bad experience. Don’t know how I can just fake it. Besides, my wife would never buy it. I’m a terrible liar.
I missed your introduction initially, somehow, and I just want to say welcome. If you are interested, I wrote the following five years ago about how I view my marriage and my relationship to the Church. I hope it helps in some way:
“
My Marriage as a Metaphor for My Church” ( http://forum.staylds.com/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=238&hilit=bricks#p2107 Also, here is a link to something one of my girls wrote a few years ago. I really love the overall picture it paints and the question at the end:
“
Imagine If”: A Poem My Daughter Wrote” ( http://forum.staylds.com/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=3098&start=10&hilit=imagine+if
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