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Hey guys, I wanted to share a little bit about my personal situation that is shifting at work. Many of you know I am a Business Travel executive with responsibility for Western U.S. and Latin America/Carribean. Two months ago, my boss finally hired her replacement. Her replacement who just relocated here from Australia has responsibility for all of the Americas (Canada, US, Latin America/Carribean). Anyway, his first weekend in Arizona, he & his family were sitting behind us at church – they are Mormons. He has been a bishop twice. They are from England (never lived in US before). It’s been an interesting 2 months for many reasons, but I’m feeling a bit more exposed than normal as a result. I don’t typically see him more than about once a week at work, but then they are also at church. He’s a lot worse about work-life balance than my previous boss, perhaps due to being new in role and trying to make his mark, and perhaps due to just being that kind of hard-driving person. I was on the road with him all this week, from 6am Monday to Thursday afternoon, visiting my teams in Houston, San Antonio and Mexico City. It was a long week with a LOT of time together one on one, mostly on planes or in airport lounges. Anyway, ‘m still sorting through this whole thing, getting a feel for him, etc., so I’m not looking for any sympathy. He seems like a decent guy overall. We got into a religious discussion yesterday en route back to Arizona from Mexico City, starting at the airport lounge and really going on all day. He is certainly more orthodox than I am, and he has a lot of compassion for the 99 (which I sometimes lack). He seems to be unsure what the deal is with the 1 (or the disaffected), thinking that maybe they should just get over it or get out. But I did state my position that everyone is different, that people shouldn’t go to church with an axe to grind or to tear people down or to show off their knowledge, but likewise, people who are orthodox have a tendency to create exclusionary rules that force people out who might be on the fence, things like white shirts or earrings. I talked about the Bednar talk about the earrings and how I dislike the fact that the BF in the story is just sitting back, waiting for her to fail rather than having a conversation with his GF. I think he was open to what I was saying, but maybe not entirely convinced I was right. He gave the analogy of a country club with rules for membership, and I just about flipped my lid – I said that using a country club analogy for the church is my exact point – it’s needlessly exclusionary. We should be welcoming. But people should be there with an interest in bettering themselves. Anyway, I don’t know that I persuaded him of anything other than my being completely out there.
He shared a story that I wanted to share. Because of being in leadership positions in Europe and Australia (he ran the New Zealand EFY with his wife), he has had a lot of personal exposure to high level leaders and apostles. He said there was a situation in England (IIRC) in which several apostles were greeting local leaders (SPs & bishops). Someone asked E. Oaks if the SPs should be using TR questions to interview bishops, and E. Oaks said that was a great way to do it. At that point, E. Packer rested his hand on E. Oaks’ shoulder and said, “That’s a fine idea, but we don’t want to make that a rule. When we say something like that, it has a tendency to become a standard church practice, and we need to be careful to avoid making statements that are just an opinion but can be taken as a pronouncement.” E. Oaks immediately deferred to E. Packer as the more senior apostle. But as a result, all 4 apostles there for the visit met first thing the next morning (at 6:30 because they already had an 8:00 meeting) to further discuss the matter. I found it enormously comforting that the apostles, especially the two in question, would be so careful about the impact of their words. So I thought I would share that story with all of you.
There were so many other things we discussed, many with contrasting viewpoints, but I can’t really share them right now, so I’ll share as relevant to discussion. I do feel good about the work that we do here at StayLDS, and from my discussion with him I was reminded that not all are called to work with the disaffected (to use Mormon lingo). But he did increase my compassion for some of the hardliners like BRM. Even though he didn’t fully persuade me, he brought up good points. I assume he feels similarly.
Thanks for sharing that, Hawk. It really is great to read that story of Elders Oaks and Bednar. Would you feel comfortable writing a post about it – making it vague enough to be a general post about something you heard from a very reputable source, or would you rather I do so – in order to keep you completely out of the original picture?
That is really interesting. I don’t mind posting that Oaks/Packer story here. I’ll work on a way to make it generic enough. If it ever came up, I’d be prepared to defend from a religious standpoint my actions on this site. Perhaps not so much from a work standpoint. 
So, here was what he said about E. McConkie. He talked about how some of the apostles are very comfortable with telling stories, and that those stories may become embellished over time on a scale of minor embellishment (I think we were talking about the FV and people sharing their testimonies in F&T mtg) to major embellishment (Paul H. Dunn). I think we were in agreement that Monson’s stories are somewhere in between. But BRM was consistently against story telling for that reason. He felt that it promoted dishonesty, and you won’t find any of his talks filled with these stories as a result. So, I couldn’t resist saying, “So, he’s consistent in avoiding telling stories, but he publishes a book under the presumptuous title of Mormon Doctrine with no authorization and over 1000 doctrinal errors.” In my defense, it was pretty early, and I’m not a morning person. He said he didn’t necessarily agree that all of those were errors and that he felt Prince (the author) was biased (doubtless, everyone is) in the DOM book. Even so, I had read that account prior to reading the DOM book. He had too, but with different conclusions. I cited the examples of racist folklore, anti-evolution rhetoric and calling the RC church the whore of the earth as doctrinal mis-statements, and he said that Notre Dame gave that impression (whorish?) with all the devilish organ music and opulent interior (IMO Notre Dame is one of the most tasteful cathedrals in Europe, although the gargoyles may appear a little spooky). Anyway, at that point I had a minor stroke and was incapable of speech. All right, not really, but I’m sure I had zero poker face.
So, I do think he made a good point about understanding BRM’s perspective. BRM was a literalist, and he was critical of inaccurate story telling and the tendency to embellish for effect, even critical of his fellow apostles who indulged in this. He disliked theatrics. I still am not convinced BRM was someone I’d enjoy having over for dinner, but I imagine he was pretty good at living what he believed. And on some level I can respect that.
Wow, I really appreciate the BRM story. I agree with you, I do feel slightly more compassionate toward him and similar literalists. I can’t say I’m out of the “roll my eyes” camp on the issue, but I definitely can see him differently now. Thank you for sharing hawk. Your story reminds me of something I’ve been thinking a lot about, and that’s the mixing of religion and work, obviously with regard to Mormonism. I have always thought best to avoid this kind of stuff when possible (not that you had a choice). I have a co-worker right now who has a realtor from a ward in our stake. The realtor has said some things causing him and his wife to feel guilty about some of the details regarding looking for a house. I felt that the realtor was really being unfair and not acting in the best interests of my co-worker. I told my co-worker he ought to find a new realtor. Then he told me she was LDS in a ward in our stake. That somehow made it different in his eyes. He can’t get a new realtor because he would feel bad if he tells her.
Talk about a conflict of interests, and of all things, when purchasing a house!! I wonder if your boss, or you, will have a tendency to treat each other differently, under a different set of expectations given the knowledge you have of each other’s religion and views within Mormonism?
I am sorry you’re feeling “a bit more exposed.” It’s a shame it has to be that way!!
Thanks for all that Hawk. It sounds like you’ve had some interesting conversations, I wish I could have listened in on some of them. 
😳 ), but face to face the words don’t come freely.I have to say my opinion of BRM changed a little in reading the recent Spencer W. Kimball book. He was one that fully supported withdrawing the priesthood restriction, and I think his support may have helped convince some of the others. I would have pegged him as a “status quo” kind before reading it. He seemed fully capable of turning 180 when given proper evidence – as I think his words after the 1978 revelation show.
It’s also kind of nice to hear that he didn’t like stories, I feel the same way. I like parable type stories – illustrations to make a point, but personal experiences often rub me the wrong way.
Quote:I wonder if your boss, or you, will have a tendency to treat each other differently, under a different set of expectations given the knowledge you have of each other’s religion and views within Mormonism?
I think the biggest thing, and that I was trying to explain to my previous boss who is now my new boss’s boss, is that Mormons are like an extended family. She was saying, “Yeah, but you just see each other at church, right?” and I said it’s more than that. We run the church, we don’t just attend. Our kids do activities together outside of church. We have social events together as families. We do service projects together. And Mormons are sharing stories, prayers, testimonies and whatnot in front of one another on a regular basis at church.
Quote:I am sorry you’re feeling “a bit more exposed.”
However, I just got called into nursery (further proof that expediency and willingness trumps revelation in callings), so that will reduce my exposure to my boss while increasing my exposure to flus, colds, and bodily excretions. Also, there is a rumored impending ward split.
Quote:I have to say my opinion of BRM changed a little in reading the recent Spencer W. Kimball book.
I’m going to have to read this. I think it’s tough to really understand people. I have probably judged BRM as uncharitably as anyone. I probably need to rethink that. My biggest concern with BRM is those who use his words as self-justification to judge others or to be excessively dogmatic. My boss’s view is that many people just really struggle with the gray. Everything is going to be black and white to them. BRM doesn’t create that
ex nihilo; they gravitate to him because that’s their orientation. And in reality, he was less black & white than he came across. Thanks for sharing these cool stories, Ang.
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