My personal introduction (this is a hard one)

[Anonymous]

Hello all.

I joined this group several days ago (maybe even a week or two) and I’m just now writing my introduction. I may not have the “typical” profile of a member of this group (then again, there may not be a “typical” member). I think I have concerns that may be unique to me, and maybe the most I can hope for is to hear, “Yeah, I hear what you’re saying. Good luck to you.” I hope I can at least brainstorm some of the thoughts I’ve been having to get some clarity around these concerns, though.

I’ve been bothered by a bunch of different things, some of which are doctrinal, some of which are just social, some of which are socio-political. Right now I’m just trying to get an introduction on here and put myself out there, and I may go into more detail in more in threads on specific topics. But I am definitely a liberal member of the church who gets upset by hearing so many members of the church insist on promoting a conservative agenda, even in areas that have nothing to do with doctrine (such as economic policy). And what bothers me even more is when I look at everyone I know who used to be a member of the church but is now inactive or have left the church completely have been on the liberal end of the spectrum, and while I know that the church is officially non-partisan, it almost feels like unofficially, the church is ostracizing its liberal members because its right wing rank and file members want to cement its status as a right wing institution.

But my concerns about church members’ politics are, I think, just a part of larger concerns about church members’ general attitudes that often conflict with my own and often leave me feeling out of place among members of the church. I have a testimony, so I can’t just leave the church and rationalize that it’s not true, but I also have a hard time having so many conflicts with the people I go to church with on Sunday, or people I went to church with in the past, and feeling like I have to watch my back with the people I go to church with every Sunday for fear that they’re going to attack me for what I really think, even if it has nothing to do with doctrine, or it’s just my feelings. I also have a problem with the way the church, to some extent from the leadership, but to a large extent the rank and file members, have moved from enduring trials and tribulations to glamorizing them, to the point where you risk public condemnation for wanting the circumstances of your life to be better. I sometimes feel like if I actually verbalize what I want with members of the church, I get criticized for wanting anything at all instead of “being humble” and “submitting my will to God,” and yet when I verbalize what I want with people outside of the church, they wonder if I’ve discussed it with members of the church (because they know the gospel is important to me), and when I express the problems I’ve had with other church members, they tell me “Well, maybe Mormonism isn’t for you, and you should find another spiritual path to follow.”

So I’m hoping a group like this will help me balance out those two sides because people understand what it’s like to have a testimony of the gospel and to have so many conflicts with members of the church and with specific doctrinal points.

Thanks all!

[Anonymous]

Hi TragedianActor,

I have a couple thoughts about your post.

First, although the majority of Mormons are conservative that is not universally true. My wife’s step father is very liberal and also very active and very much believing. He definitely had a hard time with Proposition 8, but he somehow moves forward this way. I’m not him so I can’t tell you how he navigates this other than that I can say he is an example of someone who is able to deal with the same challenge as you.

Second, As I have believed less and less in the LDS church I have found myself becoming more and more liberal.

Your comment on glamorizing trails is interesting. I agree that I’ve seen something similar. I usually see this in Sunday School and such but find people are a lot more reasonable one on one. Are you having this conflict in a formal church setting or are you having the problem with specific people in personal relationships? If it is in church, that just is probably the wrong setting for bringing those sort of things up (I’ve noticed a lot of comments given in church are the Sunday School answers people think they are supposed to give as opposed to real, thoughtful answers.) If it is personal relationships it may just be those people and not endemic of every Mormon.

I definitely understand the conflict of having a testimony in my heart but not having it add up in my brain.

[Anonymous]

Tragedian Actor, thank you for your introduction.

Much of what you’ve written sounds familiar with my believe system.

This is the hard part for all of us. (I believe)

Keep posting & welcome.

Mike from Milton.

[Anonymous]

Welcome. I think you’ll find you aren’t much of an odd duck here on this island of misfit toys.

[Anonymous]

bc_pg wrote:

Hi TragedianActor,

Second, As I have believed less and less in the LDS church I have found myself becoming more and more liberal.

I think most church members don’t really understand the scriptures. If they did, there would be much more balance in our collective political thought.

Welcome aboard Tragedian Actor. I think you will find many here who understand your struggles.

[Anonymous]

I feel your pain. I also hope you can reap some benefit by participating here. Welcome!

[Anonymous]

Welcome! Glad to have you join in the conversation with us here in the community.

It sounds like you are getting a little torn up in the grind between Mormon culture and Mormon religion (The Gospel). It’s easy for that to happen, and many of us find it challenging as well when we realize *WE* are the ones who aren’t really fitting in like we thought we did. Yup. Been there. Doing that often. Bought the T-Shirt.

Debating the fine details and perhaps the dividing line between eternal Gospel concepts, practical interpretation and then things that are plainly cultural … that’s what we love to do here. So feel right at home. There’s a diversity of views.

The “real” religion lies somewhere between:

-Love God and love your neighbor as yourself

all the way down to

-The ward bulletin handed out at sacrament meeting every week is scripture.

[Anonymous]

Brian Johnston wrote:

The “real” religion lies somewhere between:

-Love God and love your neighbor as yourself

all the way down to

-The ward bulletin handed out at sacrament meeting every week is scripture.

Hey, when I was in charge of the ward bulletin, not only was it scripture, it was beautiful! (graphic designer by trade. )

[Anonymous]

Pleasure to meet you.

We live in an increasingly liberal world. Many eyes are focused on the church and how it will adapt in the comming years to the rapid changes that are taking place in the world, Gay/Lesbian rights just being one example. I commend you for your honesty. As members of this forum, I consider us all patrons of genuine truth- which by the laws of nature must be accumulated from multiple perspectives.

[Anonymous]

bc_pg wrote:

Hi TragedianActor,

I have a couple thoughts about your post.

First, although the majority of Mormons are conservative that is not universally true. My wife’s step father is very liberal and also very active and very much believing. He definitely had a hard time with Proposition 8, but he somehow moves forward this way. I’m not him so I can’t tell you how he navigates this other than that I can say he is an example of someone who is able to deal with the same challenge as you.

Second, As I have believed less and less in the LDS church I have found myself becoming more and more liberal.

Your comment on glamorizing trails is interesting. I agree that I’ve seen something similar. I usually see this in Sunday School and such but find people are a lot more reasonable one on one. Or you having this conflict in church or are you having the problem with specific people in personal relationships? If it is in church, that just is probably the wrong setting for bringing those sort of things up. If it is personal relationships it may just be those people and not endemic of every Mormon.

I definitely understand the conflict of having a testimony in my heart but not having it add up in my brain.

Thanks for your post! I have an answer to a couple of your comments. First, I know that there are active, liberal members of the church, and I even know some personally, but there is still the fact that the majority of members are conservative, and if politics do come up in Sunday School, it’s more likely to sound like Fox News than MSNBC, so while I’m confident in my own harmony between my liberal politics and my testimony, there’s still the fact of being in that environment that’s uncomfortable. And what makes it even more uncomfortable for me is when members of the church overwhelmingly and vehemently come down on the conservative side of an issue that has nothing to do with doctrine. Even on things like union rights or austerity measures in the budget or taxation policy, or foreign policy, the majority of members always seem to come down on the Fox News side of the argument and react with open hostility and any suggestion that the liberal side of the argument might actually be beneficial for families in general. And when it’s those non-doctrinal policies that I think impact my family more (because the economy affects everyone, after all), when I advocate policies that are not only beneficial to my family, but to the families of those very ward members that are displaying open hostility to those policies, it gets really discouraging.

As for the question about glamorizing trials, it has been both individual interactions as well as broad based observations that go right up to even reoccurring themes in general conference talks. First, a little bit of background. I finally met someone and married her when I was 32. However, up to that time, I experienced a series of frustrations around dating and even interacting with women in the singles wards I was a member of. My hope that this would change was diminished because of the popularity of such things like John Bytheway’s “What I wish I had known when I was single,” where he says things like that you have to be okay with being single, totally denying the fact that, deep down in your heart, one may not be (I wasn’t), and putting things on a hierarchy, like it’s still better to be “happily single” than “unhappily single,” and that it was still better to be “unhappily single” than “unhappily married.” Not being satisfied with this, of course, I would go and talk to my bishop and say something as simple as “I’m not married, I want to be married, how do I accomplish this?” Simple as that. And I even made sure to ask it in a positive tone of voice to attempt to avoid an accusation that I was just “complaining” about the situation. Nevertheless, I still got the same hopeless answers that I would just have to wait for “the Lord’s timetable,” and that “some people just don’t get married in this life.”

Now, yes, I am married now, but my prolonged singlehood, and the responses I got to my attempts to correct that situation, ranging from ambivalence to flat out contempt for so long has still irreparably scarred me and made me feel that, if I couldn’t get any straight answers to solve my most important concern in mortality, then how can I get any sort of constructive feedback on any more immediate concerns, such as career, finances, politics, or anything else that might come up along the way between here and eternity?

It doesn’t help that you get the conference talks that keep talking about enduring trials patiently. I think it comes up at least once or twice in every conference now, sometimes as a smaller part of someone’s talk or sometimes there’s a whole talk about it. The gravest example was the whole “Come What May and Love It” speech. I hated it. I felt like not only was God not only not going to help me with my problems, but he actually expected me to love my problems and be grateful for them – an implication I resented and still do resent. But of course, once that talk was given, the whole church ate it up and have even printed up house signs with the catchphrase to sell on Deseret Book.

On the other hand, I keep waiting every single conference for a talk with a theme like, “Do you have a concern? Do you want God to help you solve it? Here’s how you do it.” Every single conference, I wait in vain. Again, it almost seems like God doesn’t want our problems solved. I mean, that doesn’t seem consistent with God’s character, but if he does want to help us solve our problems, why is no one in the church talking about how to leverage his assistance to do just that? Why, when I counsel with other church members to look for constructive solutions, do I instead get blown off, or worse, get my faith questioned for actually expecting God’s help instead of just “submitting to God’s will?”

There’s more I could include here, but I’m afraid my answer may be getting to long, so I think I need to hit the submit button now and add more later.

[Anonymous]

If you think the church is hard on liberals, you should try being a radical. As far as I’m concerned liberals are in the center of the political spectrum, and I’m to the left.

Maybe I’m a United Order Mormon…

[Anonymous]

SamBee wrote:

If you think the church is hard on liberals, you should try being a radical. As far as I’m concerned liberals are in the center of the political spectrum, and I’m to the left.

Maybe I’m a United Order Mormon…

I don’t know. I support Dennis Kucinich, Bernie Sanders, and Jill Stein, so maybe I’m a radical after all.

Then again, Kucinich once pointed out that his positions are in the mainstream of the American citizenry, which would make all the other political officials too far to the right.

[Anonymous]

Trust me, I’m way to the left of the Democrat Party! It irritates me having to explain to people in church leadership that whenever they do certain pro-military stuff it’s political. I don’t support the Middle Eastern wars, and never have. I’m also anti-nuclear. I think atomic weapons were probably inspired by Satan. (Not saying Oppenheimer and Einstein were Satanists, but that evil had a hand in their creation)

[Anonymous]

SamBee wrote:

Trust me, I’m way to the left of the Democrat Party! It irritates me having to explain to people in church leadership that whenever they do certain pro-military stuff it’s political. I don’t support the Middle Eastern wars, and never have. I’m also anti-nuclear. I think atomic weapons were probably inspired by Satan. (Not saying Oppenheimer and Einstein were Satanists, but that evil had a hand in their creation)

Yeah, I’m to the left of the Democratic party, but I’ll grant you, I may not be way to the left.

I just used my recent move as an excuse to change my party affiliation to the Working Families Party, and was strongly considering registering as a Green. (If someone really wants to explain the intricacies of New York political parties and put that decision into context, I can, but I won’t bore you with the details unless you really want to be bored. )

[Anonymous]

Yeah, the church has plenty of “environmental issues” – starting with disposable sacrament cups and heating costs… that’s worth another thread!

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