My Plan, or your plan?

[Anonymous]

NonTraditionalMom wrote:

This discussion has been very interesting, and I’ve thought of a few questions. I didn’t serve a mission myself, so I’m curious, especially for those who mentioned struggling with re-entry, would a program like My Plan have helped?

For me – no. It was that there where no other less people my age. All my friends were gone and I could only afford a local college.

[Anonymous]

NonTraditionalMom wrote:

This discussion has been very interesting, and I’ve thought of a few questions. I didn’t serve a mission myself, so I’m curious, especially for those who mentioned struggling with re-entry, would a program like My Plan have helped? Or are there certain things, like language and cultural differences, that are just going to be difficult because that’s what comes from separating yourself from your known world for two years? In other words, is not having a plan in place a major issue?

Good question. I must have had an experience similar to On Own Now when coming home. “Reacclimating to my birth culture” certainly wouldn’t have made my list, there’s no way I could have anticipated that as a thing on the horizon. Even if I did write it down as a formal goal I don’t think it would have made much a difference, the challenge was what it was.

Everyone has a plan ’till they get punched in the mouth. Having a plan is nice but most of us end up rolling with whatever challenges life presents at the time.

NonTraditionalMom wrote:

On that note, several of you mentioned the huge RM attrition rate. My question, then, is the lack of a plan the thing (or one of the major things) causing RM’s to lose their faith or leave the church? Is introducing this kind of program going to help the RM’s in the way they need help?

Another good question. I could only speculate why the RM attrition rate is what it is and I think leaders are in a similar boat. It’s hard to address a problem when we don’t even know what that problem is. If the problem is a lack of direction My Plan might help. If the problem is “I can’t wait to get out from under all this micromanagement…”

NonTraditionalMom wrote:

It will be very interesting to see how the church unfolds and uses the program. I would be much more inclined to feel positively about it if the missionary is given autonomy to explore choices and ideas (for example, I think career counseling and personality type activities would be fantastic) as well as with whom to share the plan. I think setting goals and being accountable for those goals is very important, but the person making the plan is the one who needs to have complete control over the timeline and accountability of those goals. In my experience, the church struggles a bit with the concept of autonomy.

I think the missionary will have the ability to set their own goals and have full control over them. In the linked article it sounds like:

[Anonymous]

I do think many missionaries do feel like they have made a big sacrifice (and I would agree for most it is a substantial sacrifice) and often feel the blessings should start flowing once they are back from their mission. When life’s inevitable challenges can’t me they can feel a bit abandoned. I know I felt a bit like that. That doctrine of blessings coming from righteousness plays into it.

[Anonymous]

DarkJedi wrote:

I think that was my point SD. The plan is the church’s plan, not the individual’s.

My point was that there isn’t a lot left to dictate after the YM/YW returns from their mission. Most of the dictating has happened. And I think some RM’s may benefit from the direction as you can feel kind of lost after you achieve the mission milestone. Where you and I agree is that whatever the plan is, it shouldn’t be a church plan — the lockstep marriage ASAP, kids ASAP etcetera.

In one meeting I was in, a leader commented that “if you can get the priesthood married in the temple with a child, the chances of him staying married and active throughout his life goes up dramatically”. That, to me, seemed self-serving because it serves the interests of the church — and some people may not have found the right person to marry right away. I also don’t agree with BY’s statement that “the single man is a menace to society”. Often he’s simply not found the right person yet. And the church, in areas with sparse Mormon presence, makes it hard to find suitable people because there isn’t a lot to choose from either.

So, I disagree with the part about rushing RM’s into marriage and children. But helping them get a plan in place so they can have a satisfying career may be helpful — maybe. At this point , I have to ask myself — how qualified is an LDS leader to give career advice to an RM? Probably not that great — but a Priesthood leader could direct the RM to good career counseling resources that are often available in the community, through schools, and sometimes even the government.

So, my view is that priesthood leaders should avoid imposing the marriage/family template on the RM, and should limit their advice to areas in which they have expertise, or to directing RM’s to resources that have the skills to help them….

[Anonymous]

Side note: People have struggled to attribute the comment about single men being a menace to society to BY. The idea does thrive in our culture though, it’s something we really want BY to have said.

George Q. Cannon did say:

George Q. Cannon wrote:

Our boys, when they arrive at years of maturity and can take earn of a wife, should get married, and there should not be a lot of young men growing up in our midst who ought to be, but are not married. While I do not make the remark to apply to individual cases, I am firmly of the opinion that a large number of unmarried men, over the age of twenty-four years, is a dangerous element in any community, and an element upon which society should look with a jealous eye. For every man knowing himself, knows how his fellow-man is constituted; and if men do not marry, they are too apt to do something worse. Then, brethren, encourage our young men to marry, and see that they are furnished employment, so that they can marry.

Journal of Discourses, Volume 20, Page 7

[Anonymous]

I have shared the following with my kids about “get married quick”

[img]https://dalrock.files.wordpress.com/2011/04/fig_19_series_23_no_22_p_27.png[/img]

[Anonymous]

LH, I agree that is a huge challenge for RMs. The whole “strict obedience brings blessings” thing that was pounded into me as a missionary was the very beginning of my initial faith crisis. I returned home with no job in a small branch with no marriage prospects (the only single female was 40). While I believed because I was being obedient and had sacrificed all that I had (I was self supporting on my mission and spent all of my savings) I would be blessed. I was living at home for several months (some might count that as a blessing, they obviously weren’t there) until I found a regular job besides the paper route I was able to get right off – which barely paid for gas. I also got a calling I didn’t particularly like, but in those days wouldn’t say no. I do think many other missionaries in this part of the world deal with similar issues, and if “My Plan” helps them set educational goals, more power to it. I’m a believer in goals and plans, but I also recognize at 55 that most of the way I thought things might be at this point in my life aren’t that way at all.

SD, I think we agree but it’s a matter of communicating with less than ample words and in this type of media. I certainly agree that the template of expecting almost immediate marriage and having children does not fit all members. Personally I think it’s better to wait until education is completed before marriage, but true love comes when it comes. I do disagree with the unmarried man being a menace to society idea, having known some very fine single men (and women). And let’s not forget about our gay brothers. Just an observation from an Easterner – almost all our young men and women who go off to BYU and marry there do not come back here and strengthen the church (ward/stake) where they were raised. I served as YMP for years in the late 90s/early 00s – NONE of those guys live here now (they almost all live in the Corridor). Our ward struggles.

And one more comment on the unmarried man being a menace – it is promulgated today. A visiting GA here said it this year – to a single guy who was asking a question. (FWIW I didn’t have a ton of respect for this particular GA before then and I have less now.)

One last comment: I think part of the issue now (with the age change) is that previously most YM and almost all YW had at least a year of college under their belts before the mission. They already had an education/career plan in place to which they would return. With the age change, far fewer of them have such a plan. At least one YM in my ward says he’s not concerned with that because his focus is the mission now and he can worry about that later. he certainly can – but I’m not so sure there is a recognition of the time it will take to get the ball rolling when he returns. (My current missionary son was at BYU when the age change happened and finished out that year. My second son chose to go to school for a year because he wanted to have some time on his own before serving. I think both made the right choice.)

[Anonymous]

I like the data above but it’s about 20 years old…it shows that with the exception of Hispanic culture, the younger you get married the more likely you are to get divorced within 10 years. I would like to see the stats within the LDS church on that, in today’s climate…

[Anonymous]

SilentDawning wrote:

I like the data above but it’s about 20 years old…it shows that with the exception of Hispanic culture, the younger you get married the more likely you are to get divorced within 10 years. I would like to see the stats within the LDS church on that, in today’s climate…

When you get to be as old as I am, 10 years does not seem like it is “old data”

I really would like to see it within the church. I don’t have a problem believing that the church’s divorce rate is lower by a bit or more. There are such eternal consequences to divorce that a TBM really has to have some issues before they jump. I can say those pressures kept me from exploring that avenue in years past. At this point I am not all that sure that exploring that before the kids came wouldn’t have been a bad thing to do. At least it would have signaled more than words what I would and would not put up with in a marriage. Ah 20/20 view looking at the past.

[Anonymous]

NonTraditionalMom wrote:

One of the issues that I struggle with the most in my FC/FT is learning to make decisions/have beliefs based on my own moral compass and not what outside sources expect or demand. In my home growing up, the church permeated every aspect of our home life, and my parents expected and even demanded me to make choices that aligned with the ideal LDS lifestyle. I needed their approval, so I complied with their wishes for me, even when what they wanted wasn’t exactly in line with what I wanted. One example– I was solicited by a small liberal arts college in high school, and I had dreams of attending there. My parents really wanted me to go to BYU, though, so in the end, I ended up applying only for BYU and that’s where I went. I never quite fit in there, though, and my first college experience was a mess. Although I do take responsibility for making the decision, I can’t help but see how much my desire to please my parents and the church influenced my decisions, especially when I was young and impressionable. Now, nearly 20 years later, I’m realizing just how much the expectations from my family and church have weighed in the way I live my life…So, now when I see that the church has come out with My Plan…, I just see red flags all over the place. Is this a good idea? Is my experience unique, and most people actually do learn to make choices autonomously? Or is this what I fear– another way for the church/parents/leaders to push their own agendas on impressionable youth?

There’s no doubt that some major life decisions such as who to marry and when, when to have children and how many children to have, and a significant number of LDS women becoming stay-at-home moms permanently instead of pursuing career goals are all being heavily influenced or effectively controlled by the Church in many cases at this point, not because they are in the best interest of individual Church members but simply because they are traditional expectations that have been set in the LDS culture and especially zealous LDS families. For example, listen to the following advice from M. Russell Ballard to single men at the last General Conference priesthood session.

M. Russell Ballard wrote:

Brethren, if you will set aside your cell phone and actually look around a little, you may even find your future companion at the institute…Which leads me to another bit of counsel that I’m sure you knew was coming: You single adults need to date and marry. Please stop delaying! I know some of you fear family formation. However, if you marry the right person at the right time and in the right place, you need not fear. In fact, many problems you encounter will be avoided if you are “anxiously engaged” in righteous dating, courting, and marriage.

That’s easy for them to say when they’re not the ones that will have to live with the long-term consequences of decisions like this. These guys need to recognize that it’s not the 1950s anymore and their fairy-tale notions about marriage supposedly being a sure-fire step toward living happily ever after simply do not reflect current reality given the prevalence of divorce and widespread dissatisfaction in many marriages nowadays. Do young single adults really fear starting a family or do they mostly fear not being able to support a family very well until they have a decent job, settling for the first “worthy” Church member they can find that is willing to marry them when they think they could do better, etc.? Seriously, why the rush? I suspect this highly questionable advice is mostly because Church leaders fear that the longer young adults remain single the higher the chances are that they will fall away from the Church so that’s why would rather see them jump into marriage head first ASAP hoping they will tough it out long enough to stick in the Church regardless of how happy they really are in the end or not.

[Anonymous]

DevilsAdvocate wrote:

For example, listen to the following advice from M. Russell Ballard to single men at the last General Conference priesthood session.

M. Russell Ballard wrote:

Brethren, if you will set aside your cell phone and actually look around a little, you may even find your future companion at the institute…Which leads me to another bit of counsel that I’m sure you knew was coming: You single adults need to date and marry. Please stop delaying! I know some of you fear family formation. However, if you marry the right person at the right time and in the right place, you need not fear. In fact, many problems you encounter will be avoided if you are “anxiously engaged” in righteous dating, courting, and marriage.

That’s easy for them to say when they’re not the ones that will have to live with the long-term consequences of decisions like this. These guys need to recognize that it’s not the 1950s anymore and their fairy-tale notions about marriage supposedly being a sure-fire step toward living happily ever after simply do not reflect current reality given the prevalence of divorce and widespread dissatisfaction in many marriages nowadays. Do young single adults really fear starting a family or do they mostly fear not being able to support a family very well until they have a decent job, settling for the first “worthy” Church member they can find that is willing to marry them when they think they could do better, etc.? Seriously, why the rush? I suspect this highly questionable advice is mostly because Church leaders fear that the longer young adults remain single the higher the chances are that they will fall away from the Church so that’s why would rather see them jump into marriage head first ASAP hoping they will tough it out long enough to stick in the Church regardless of how happy they really are in the end or not.

I used to agree more with this line of thought – just get married! Now that I have seen how many marriages are struggling and not creating happiness, I think we may not have the right balance. Certainly there are some that keep waiting for Mr/Mrs. Right. I had a friend tell me his very good looking son is, “Looking for a Barbie Doll with a huge testimony”. He has had a few really nice catches drift away. He needs to hear this advice.

To me this brings up a whole related topic. I suspect that most men that make it up the church ladder have wonderful spouses and wonderful marriages. They assume via their righteousness they have overcome all the issues in their marriage. They most likely have had to overcome some issues, but they may not understand the magnitude of issues (problems/incompatibilities) that some others are faced with. So for them the solution is marriage. It sure worked in their case.

[Anonymous]

LookingHard wrote:

To me this brings up a whole related topic. I suspect that most men that make it up the church ladder have wonderful spouses and wonderful marriages. They assume via their righteousness they have overcome all the issues in their marriage. They most likely have had to overcome some issues, but they may not understand the magnitude of issues (problems/incompatibilities) that some others are faced with. So for them the solution is marriage. It sure worked in their case.

I agree with this. People in leadership positions so often speak from perspectives of privilege. They may feel the way they do because of how well their life has gone – possibly not realizing how different the choices others face may be.

I think that church leaders see loneliness of YSA and SA women and blame the YSA and SA men. It is oft stated that women who do not marry through no fault of their own will not be denied any blessings. When I heard this in institute class I objected. What about us guys? I was told that if I asked a different woman to marry me every day for the rest of my life and they all said “no” then I could lay hold of the same promise.

I guess waiting for the right person to come along doesn’t figure into it. :crazy:

[Anonymous]

DevilsAdvocate wrote:

That’s easy for them to say when they’re not the ones that will have to live with the long-term consequences of decisions like this. These guys need to recognize that it’s not the 1950s anymore and their fairy-tale notions about marriage supposedly being a sure-fire step toward living happily ever after simply do not reflect current reality given the prevalence of divorce and widespread dissatisfaction in many marriages nowadays. Do young single adults really fear starting a family or do they mostly fear not being able to support a family very well until they have a decent job, settling for the first “worthy” Church member they can find that is willing to marry them when they think they could do better, etc.? Seriously, why the rush? I suspect this highly questionable advice is mostly because Church leaders fear that the longer young adults remain single the higher the chances are that they will fall away from the Church so that’s why would rather see them jump into marriage head first ASAP hoping they will tough it out long enough to stick in the Church regardless of how happy they really are in the end or not.

There are definitely some truths in your words, DA. One of the reasons I dislike ETB was a statement he made something to the effect of “any two people can make marriage work” while giving advice to YSA men to marry. I was a YSA male at the time, living in a very small branch far from the Corridor (and everything else – the stake center was an hour and half away). What few singles there were there were simply not desirable to me, a returned missionary who hoped to find a wife with a testimony and a brain in her head. (I did after moving, BTW.) This whole idea of getting married for the sake of being married bugs the heck out of me, and I would never give that advice to anyone. Other than tradition, the only thing I can figure out as to why this is still pushed is because of the fear that guys won’t keep their pants on. I think they don’t give us enough credit (and it’s also why I don’t think masturbation is such a big deal). Study after study is showing that people are marrying later, most in their mid 20s to early 30s after their education is complete and they have careers. Isn’t that better for a fledgling family than eating ketchup soup?

I waited to marry and I have never been sorry for that.

[Anonymous]

We’re straying a bit from the tread subject but while we’re here…

M. Russell Ballard wrote:

Brethren, if you will set aside your cell phone and actually look around a little, you may even find your future companion at the institute…Which leads me to another bit of counsel that I’m sure you knew was coming: You single adults need to date and marry. Please stop delaying! I know some of you fear family formation. However, if you marry the right person at the right time and in the right place, you need not fear. In fact, many problems you encounter will be avoided if you are “anxiously engaged” in righteous dating, courting, and marriage.

I know many people that are single that are my age and older where the fear is that they will never find someone to date and marry. He did address his comments to the youth, so it’s not like he was talking to the people that I’m thinking of. Still it’s like you all are saying, “just do it” is easy to say when coming from someone that’s been happily married for much longer than anyone that qualifies as a YSA has even been alive. Ballard might find it tough to court a young lady in 2015 without knowing how to spend some time with your head buried in a cellphone.

I think one of the reasons for the counsel to marry as soon as possible is to give people a sanctioned sexual outlet. If premarital sex and masturbation are completely off the table and you’re dangerously close to chomping through the bit… maybe I don’t give people as much credit as DJ:P Remember that there’s also the counsel to not delay having children. Those counsels go hand in hand. If people are getting married in their 30s it will be harder for them to have as many children as HF wants them to have. It frustrates the plan.

Wrong or right I get the general impression that the culture is such that a single woman is a victim of circumstance whereas a single man is seen as derelict in duty.

[Anonymous]

DarkJedi wrote:

…One of the reasons I dislike ETB was a statement he made something to the effect of “any two people can make marriage work” while giving advice to YSA men to marry…This whole idea of getting married for the sake of being married bugs the heck out of me, and I would never give that advice to anyone. Other than tradition, the only thing I can figure out as to why this is still pushed is because of the fear that guys won’t keep their pants on. I think they don’t give us enough credit (and it’s also why I don’t think masturbation is such a big deal). Study after study is showing that people are marrying later, most in their mid 20s to early 30s after their education is complete and they have careers. Isn’t that better for a fledgling family than eating ketchup soup?…I waited to marry and I have never been sorry for that.

nibbler wrote:

…I think one of the reasons for the counsel to marry as soon as possible is to give people a sanctioned sexual outlet. If premarital sex and masturbation are completely off the table and you’re dangerously close to chomping through the bit… maybe I don’t give people as much credit as DJ

It does look like this is one of the main reasons why many in the Church think it’s suppsedly a good idea in general to get married relatively young simply because according to LDS doctrine marriage is the only acceptable sexual outlet so they basically see marriage as a solution to avoid breaking the Law of Chastity. However, to me that sounds like a classic example of the tail wagging the dog for anyone to think that it is worth risking a shaky start to something as serious as marriage ignoring potential red flags like a lack of muturity and financial stability, long-term compatability issues, etc. when divorce can easily involve such a heavy cost to one or both partners and/or their children.

This idea is even more questionable if you consider how many RMs married in the temple already masturbate repeatedly both before and after they are married anyway even if married before they finish their education (which many Church leaders probably don’t want to think about in a realistic way). Even if we forget about masturbation and pretend it doesn’t exist and assume that Church leaders especially fear that too many young single adults will eventually succumb to the temptation of pre-marital sex if they don’t get married ASAP, if the Church supposedly believes in repentance then I still don’t see why it should be more important to worry so much about what is typically a temporary stage in people’s lives compared to a long-term commitment like marriage. But it looks like they don’t really believe in repentance that much at all as much as strict obedience to the cradle-to-grave LDS life script of full-time missions, temple marriage, and enduring to the end wire-to-wire.

nibbler wrote:

Remember that there’s also the counsel to not delay having children. Those counsels go hand in hand. If people are getting married in their 30s it will be harder for them to have as many children as HF wants them to have. It frustrates the plan.

That’s a very diplomatic way of putting it. To me this whole “MyPlan” concept of extending mission-style documented goals before and after the mission mostly sounds like more guilt-trips and yet another example of the Church treating its members like they are just an interchangeable cog in the machine whose main purpose is to serve and perpetuate the Church itself. I realize that many Church leaders probably mean well with all of this largely because they believe Church members will be magically blessed with happiness, prosperity, etc. as a result of their obedience but once you start to question whether some of these promised future blessings and rewards will ever be delivered sometimes it’s hard not to see some of these arrangements and expectations as being rather one-sided heavily in favor of the Chruch mostly at the expense of the rank-and-file members.

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