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P.S. I know it’s not “most men” or “all men” who feel empowered. I know your lives are challenging too. I know there are specific ways that men are disadvantaged too. And I know you are “the good guys.” Well said Thankful! And I agree that there are many great lds men as well. Just to say it, even as I agree with almost everything Thankful wrote, theory is pointless when it doesn’t match reality in any way – and pointless theory is dangerous. In Mormon theology, there is no point to immortality without women. Without women as part of sealed couples, “The earth would be wasted at his coming.” Literally, according to our theology, creation would have been a wasted effort.
Likewise, the LDS Church would crumble without women – very quickly.
Those basic facts show the need to integrate women better into the endowment and church leadership, and stating otherwise actually obfuscates and muddies the issue, IMO. We need to live up better to our theology, not water down that theology by even implying women are irrelevant to it or dispensable to the Church.
I think that a lot of the problems Thankful highlights would be addressed, directly or indirectly, by changing the experience we all share, and which undergirds everything in the church – the temple. Old-Timer wrote:Just to say it, even as I agree with almost everything Thankful wrote, theory is pointless when it doesn’t match reality in any way – and pointless theory is dangerous.
In Mormon theology, there is no point to immortality without women. Without women as part of sealed couples, “The earth would be wasted at his coming.” Literally, according to our theology, creation would have been a wasted effort.
Likewise, the LDS Church would crumble without women – very quickly.
Those basic facts show the need to integrate women better into the endowment and church leadership, and stating otherwise actually obfuscates and muddies the issue, IMO. We need to live up better to our theology, not water down that theology by even implying women are irrelevant to it or dispensable to the Church.
What you just said, that theory is pointless and dangerous if it doesn’t match reality, got me thinking about the temple and recent discussion at fMh – “The Mormon Priestess.” At the end, I actually come out with a softer heart for Brigham Young and wonder if he would change the temple if he were here. We know more now and his theory about women doesn’t match reality – and it
isdangerous to a woman’s psyche. Quote:From BY’s now-defunct Lecture Before the Veil:
It is said by Moses the historian that the Lord caused a deep sleep to come upon Adam and took from his side a rib and formed the woman that Adam called Eve-this should be interpreted that the Man Adam like all other Men had the seed within him to propagate his species. but not the Woman. She conceives the seed but she does not produce it.
Someone else’s comment called this the “women as flowerpots” mindset. We’re essential, but apparently only because men can’t be their own flowerpots. The reality – that a woman’s egg is as essential as a man’s sperm in sexual reproduction – is missing. It’s missing
because he didn’t know it. Most people didn’t. His understanding was limited by his closeness in time to the invention and widespread use of the microscope and the opening of the field of genetics, etc. What would the endowment look like if BY had seen footage of conception on a microscopic level? I hope this isn’t too “graphic,” but his clearly mistaken view of this important fact of life must have been very entrenched and influential in his thinking. Women’s bodies nurture the unborn. But before that,
separatefrom that, we have the same potential inside us that men do. Doesn’t that sameness — taken literally and especially taken symbolically — mean we should stand with men in the temple as equals before God? Ann wrote:Women’s bodies nurture the unborn. But before that, separate from that, we have the same potential inside us that men do. Doesn’t that sameness — taken literally and especially taken symbolically — mean we should stand with men in the temple as equals before God?
Great – Great Point!
:thumbup: FWIW I asked DW to read “The Mormon Priestess.” Before she was against LDS women receiving the priesthood now she is ok with it (not exactly a supporter but I was astounded at the change nonetheless.)
I still struggle with how I feel about women holding the priesthood, not sure right now if I even believe in the priesthood, but one thing I can say for sure, is that I have always firmly believed that I would stand as an individual before God on judgement day and that he would judge me by my own merits. I feel that the current system in the church is one of men over women, and if the current teachings are true then it would be more like me being judged with my husband there going, “well I tried to get this ignorant woman to listen to me and she just wouldn’t” (side note: my husband is nothing like this, best guy out there, but this doctrine still irks me). The temple ordinances make me feel like a child sometimes, that my husband will always be better than me and that I need to listen to him because he is oh so wise. I feel this defeats the purpose of growth we testify of in the church. It is like a religious glass ceiling for women, you will be able to learn and grow, but somehow you will never be as wise or good at hearkening unto the Lord as your husband. Also, it has always upset me that I would never even have the opportunity of holding most church leadership positions. I am a go-getter, very creative and organized, task oriented, caring, etc. I feel I would have a lot to offer, but I am already discredited because of my gender. I know there are men just like me out there and they do great jobs, and I am not saying our current leaders do not have these qualities, because they most certainly do, but it is like going to apply for a job and not even being able to turn in your resume. You don’t even get a second glance. What if I want to help build up the kingdom? What if I believe in it, have great ways of sharing the gospel, etc? It is the principal of absolute exclusion that bothers me, even if I cannot hold the priesthood, why do I never get to be in the decision making room either? Why do I need someone to hold my hand all through life, I thought that I came here to prove myself worthy, not have someone tell me what to do.
One last thing, doesn’t the idea of your husband needing to tell you what to do sound slightly like Satans plan in the pre-existence? Where does my agency come in? Is my agency the ability to either say yes or no to my husband? If I do not listen to him then I am breaking a covenant, right? So logically I am supposed to always hearken to him, like I hearken to the brethren, with a yes sir and a salute, no questions asked?
Mom of two….I agree with your concerns and views . There realy is not a lot that can or will be done about women’s issues in the church I fear because women do not have ANY TRUE input or desicion / policy making avenues. A man wether a GA or local bishop will at least have the potential to be part of the leadership process even at the local level. Women are not allowed to be at the table. Words such as preside in the family proc continue to reinforce the known fact that when it comes down to it, men decide the outcome and women support period! Throw in the temple language of god then man then woman and it seems like a pretty hopeless situation at times which is unfortunate as we do not paint eve as some sort of evil temptress as many other religions have done. I fear many of the GAs are surrounded by women that have never dared to explore or question the status quo and simply defer to honoring their priesthood leaders commands. What to teach our daughters? I know Dax, it is such a quandry, and just the tip of the iceberg… Dax wrote:What to teach our daughters?
I think this question is rhetorical but I’m going to give my opinion anyways. Having two teenage daughters I’ve told them that any man who believes that “preside” means something other than equality making doesn’t deserve their attention. I want my girls to feel that any career is available to them and that they don’t have to be professional baby makers. I’ve also taught this to the YM in my ward – that presiding in the home means treating their wife as an equal – and it was well received by the male leaders.
We may not have control over the organizational structure of the church but we do control what we teach our own children. I think we can also teach our children that the church is imperfect but that hopefully it is improving.
What to teach our daughters? I have tried to teach my daughters (four of them, aged 12-22) that they are equal to my sons (two of them, aged 24 and 26) and that the differences in the LDS Church are cultural and changeable – and I have tried to show them how much has changed in my own adulthood, so they have a “real” foundation for hope in continued change.
I have analyzed Elder Oaks’ most recent talk on the Priesthood and devoted every week during the “Priesthood” month in my Sunday School class to ensuring that the young men and women in my class understand how radically different it is than what was taught when I was there age – and that anything can change when the concept of on-going revelation is accepted.
I have taught them that they don’t have to accept ANY abuse of ANY kind from ANY man – but I also have tried to teach them the difference between abuse and simply humanity.
I have taught them that their own, individual views are every bit as valid and important as mine – that I will love and accept them no matter what they come to believe.
There is more, but those are the things that jump to mind immediately.
Misogyny, with a smile, is still misogyny. The church would do well to learn that lesson.
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Ray and Roadrunner, those are fantastic ideas and beliefs to teach your daughters. I was taught the same things by both of my parents and saw how true equality and love is suppose to function in a healthy marriage. Your daughters are still young and are just entering the dating/marriage scene(some could be married) and have yet to function on a complete ward level for the most part. I wonder and fear for them that soon they will be in for the absolute mind blowing, rude awaking that I and many of my friends were exposed to in the LDS dating scene,the temple ceremony and how things function on a ward level. Also do not forget that almost every YW lesson,camp, efy, new era article, fireside has the emphasis of girls preparing ONLY to be worthy of marriage in the temple and motherhood. That they are damaged goods if they have lost their virtue(chastity) either by force or by choice. That even the atonement will not make that licked cup cake whole again. That the only real value they have is their developing bodies and that is not even their own to be honest. Their bodies are something that must be covered at all times lest they cause a lds boy/man to have lustful thoughts and become walking pornography. Forget about once in the LDS dating world they will be lucky to even find good, non entitled,non domineering lds men not threatened by a intelligent, strong woman that isn’t afraid to have an opinion and share it. (Cant tell you how many lds guys I dated that told me that I would have to learn to follow their decisions in marriage as they were the priesthood holder ughh). IF they can find a unique LDS guy once married in the temple their bodies will never be free to feel the cool air on their skin or move without 3 layers of extra clothes even while nursing or pregnant. That even with physical and psychological issues they will be told it is better for women to suffer wearing garments (that were developed for men) versus “breaking covenants and losing their eternal families”. Or if they question polygamy and DC 132 they will be patted on the head and told “don’t worry you’ll understand one day when God removes the pride from your heart and your willing to obey the celestial law.” Or the biggest shock, why do they covenant to their husbands and not to Heavenly Father directly in the temple? Are they not enough as a daughter of God for that simple act? So yes, prepare your daughters as best you can to be able to withstand the glaring teachings and doctrines that will whisper to them quietly on an internal, soul wrenching level that how the church is set up currently, daughters of God are merely supporting players and not as valuable as the sons of God. Sorry but as a lds woman you either choose to close your self off to these things or try to find a middle ground without letting your pain push you away from the gospel completely. Many women are able to simply have enough faith to shelf these questions and concerns for the next life. I wish I could and did for a long while before my shelf crashed.
Again you both give great advice and sound like you are raising amazing daughters and sons. Unfortunately you are fighting culture and doctrine that says the opposite in large part. There comes a point when there are to many examples of men abusing or using their power in incorrect ways to simply tell women that those are just jerks ignore them. It is natural for good men to come from a place of power and authority and tell women that those guys or the culture or the misunderstood doctrine are just wrong look past it. It is a whole other thing to be the women this is happening to over and over again with NO voice and ZERO power to stop what is occurring.
ps amen Cwald amen!
Dax, I agree that there are MAJOR obstacles that still need to be cleared – but I can say honestly that what my daughters face now is different than what my sisters faced at their ages and that I am positive what their daughters face will be different than what they face now. Also, my oldest daughter has gone through the temple and was prepared for it.
Old-Timer wrote:Dax, I agree that there are MAJOR obstacles that still need to be cleared – but I can say honestly that what my daughters face now is different than what my sisters faced at their ages and that I am positive what their daughters face will be different than what they face now…
I agree with this.
Unfortunately, it was not enough to keep my liberal, feminist daughter motivated.
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