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I feel like I am introducing myself at an AA meeting…Hi! My name is Coonic and I’m having a “faith crisis.” I have only begun delving deeper into the issues many have with the church. I was baptized when I was 11 yrs old. I grew up knowing I was “Mormon” but my Dad isn’t a member and my Mom has been inactive pretty much my whole life. As a youth I depended on ward leaders and friends to take me to church but I have been active my whole life and was sealed to my husband about 9 years ago. I never gave much credence to information that would disparage any church leader or doctrine. I don’t know how to describe where I am at right now. I know for the past year or more I have dreaded Sundays. My oldest hates to go church and now that my daughter is in sunbeams she hates to go. So Sundays have become a chore. But before this I have felt different inside about church. I haven’t felt the fire and zeal that I use to experience as a youth. I have had Spiritual experience but nothing like it use to be. There are other things that led me to this point but the main turning point for me just happened last week. I have a good friend in my ward who recently opened up to me about her and her family leaving the church. She wasn’t preaching to me or trying to convince me of anything. I started the conversation with some feelings I had and she opened up to me about the reasons why she feels she can no longer attend church. I felt a burden lifted off my shoulders. One of the things she mentioned to me was the $5 billion mall that is owned by the church. I knew I couldn’t take her at her word, so I started trying to find answers. Right now, it seems the more answers I seek, the more questions arise.
I tried to discuss a few of the issues I have been finding with my husband but he is not willing to investigate with me. He feels like I am trying to prove the church wrong and I feel like he is turning a blind eye to things that aren’t adding up. He feels like perhaps my friend should’ve kept her feelings to herself but I feel that I was already on this path but she just opened the door.
I don’t know if this middle path will work for me. I can’t turned a blind eye to some of the church does. How can I keep paying tithing to a church that I feel is more of a Corporation than anything? How can I hold callings where I would have to teach about things that I find difficult to grasp? I have been taught the black and white way of thinking and I don’t know if I can turn from that.
I know being in the church has brought to where I am today: I am healthy and have a Loving and Faithful husband, 3 beautiful children and all the other blessings I enjoy. I know I am a child of God and that He loves me and because of that I know that I have worth. There are some great teachings in the church that I want to instill into my children. I don’t know if I can be the buffet Mormon where I can pick what works for me and what doesn’t. I guess that is my biggest feeling: I don’t know. I feel great relief that I have found a place to read about those who have had similiar experiences and have found ways to adapt. So thank you all for your input. I don’t feel like I have enough time in the day to read all through past discussions but I am trying to!
Welcome, coonic. Faith crisis can be tough to deal with. I’ve had to reconstruct my faith and I’m so much happier for it. I still look at the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints as being the Lord’s church that has all the essential ingredients for exaltation, but I realize now that the church isn’t perfect, it’s members (including leaders) are flawed, and the Lord could tell someone to leave his church or not join. Why the Lord wouldn’t want everyone in this church in this life is not something I understand. Maybe he has other plans for some people. Again, welcome and I will pray you will find peace as you deal with your crisis. I completely sympathies with your struggle. I don’t have any answers myself, but I’m glad your here. Welcome Coonic! We do understand the difficulty and the personal turmoil, I’m glad you found us. First step, relax, take a deep breath. It is not critical that you figure everything out immediately.
coonic wrote:… There are some great teachings in the church that I want to instill into my children. I don’t know if I can be the buffet Mormon where I can pick what works for me and what doesn’t. I guess that is my biggest feeling: I don’t know.
I completely understand the feeling that you don’t know – how could you know? …you have never seen the world in a different light from how you’ve always seen it. The best way to focus right now is to believe that answers will come to you, they will. From my experience they come a little better when I’m not in a rush to nail everything down.
For what its worth I think every church member picks and chooses the teachings that they most relate to. It’s a part of human nature, everyone is different, that is WHY the diverse buffet is laid out before us – so we will all find something that keeps us coming back to the table. As children we often hear we need to eat everything off our plate, but the truth is we always have our favorites. It doesn’t matter if we don’t want to see it that way, it still is that way.
Again welcome, make yourself at home!
Welcome. I’m glad you are here with us. Just to highlight a few things for you to consider, in the order they appear in your introduction:
Quote:One of the things she mentioned to me was the $5 billion mall that is owned by the church.
The mall didn’t cost $5 billion dollars. That was the cost for the entire urban redevelopment project that was FAR more expansive than just building a mall. We have a long thread about that in our archives where, as usual, we disagree with each other about various things – but it’s a good example of how we can disagree and still respect each other.
Quote:I tried to discuss a few of the issues I have been finding with my husband but he is not willing to investigate with me.
Then stop trying for now. Your relationship with him if more important than anything else, as long as he is a good, loving man. Honestly doesn’t have to mean total openness about everything, especially when emotions still are a bit raw and reactions are bound to be defensive. Recognize that he’s feeling unsafe right now. Protect him for a while.
Quote:I have been taught the black and white way of thinking and I don’t know if I can turn from that.
The answer to your questions is in that statement. Changing your view in that central way really is the key.
Quote:I know being in the church has brought to where I am today: I am healthy and have a Loving and Faithful husband, 3 beautiful children and all the other blessings I enjoy. I know I am a child of God and that He loves me and because of that I know that I have worth. There are some great teachings in the church that I want to instill into my children.
There is the core part of your solution. Don’t overlook or forget that. You aren’t in the process of rejection; you are in the process of personal growth and evolution. It can be scary in the process, but it can be wonderful in the end.
Quote:I don’t know if I can be the buffet Mormon where I can pick what works for me and what doesn’t.
EVERYBODY does that, but most people who are ultra-conservative, traditionalists just don’t realize they are doing it. I mean that. There is no way members can accept, believe and follow everything that has been said in our scriptures and by modern prophets and apostles. They don’t even agree with each other on lots of things. It’s impossible to enter the Church’s cafeteria and eat everything that is there to be served. Recognizing that simple fact can be very liberating.
Perhaps the easiest examples of this are two very different things: polygamy and Home/Visiting Teaching. The majority of members back in the day were monogamous, even though the standard pulpit message was that polygamy was the ideal and that the Celestial Kingdom depended on it. Most people didn’t believe that, so they didn’t participate. It was unstated but understood. Lots of members now don’t Home or Visit Teach religiously, even though it often is called the central “program” of the Church. Usually, it is because of time constraints in our modern world and the fact that many wards are not bound by neighborhoods of a few square blocks. It’s much, much harder to do now, so many members don’t do it perfectly – and they find ways to accept that.
Anyway, welcome to our group. I hope you find the help you are seeking, and I hope we can learn from you.
Welcome to the site coonic and thanks for sharing. I hope you find this place a refuge. A couple of viewpoints:
City Creek. I find it a little crass too. Having said that, while I struggle to defend it I’m aware that all organisations need to spend some money on their main purpose (our tithing might be mainly temples, chapels and printed materials) but also saving some in reserve. Rather than have it lose value “under the mattress” it’s better to invest the money so it doesn’t devalue. Also, the church receives a lot of ‘willed’ gifts and have a historical ‘non-tithing’ fund that is used to invest in business operations like Deseret Book, City Creek etc. Apparently tithing funds never touch their business arm, but profits from their business arm apparently get siphoned into their ‘spread the gospel fund.’ That doesn’t solve it all for me… But at least goes some way to put a different perspective on it.
Also, the greatest gift you can give your husband right now is to not impose the topics of your faith crisis on him. My wife had a FC long before I did. It was a scary time for me as a TBM at the time. I worried she was going to go off the rails and leave me. I also didn’t want to know what she was discovering as I felt, at the time, that it was ‘anti’ lies. Her respect for me was a huge strengthening of our relationship. She still went through the process… But she didn’t impose it on me.
Finally, we sometimes fear letting go of black and white because we presume that grey is equal to “luke warm” and being spat out. I don’t think it’s the same thing. I’m still very engaged with God and trying to understand my relationship with him. My perspective is changing. My understanding of a prophet’s role or the restoration etc is different to 1 year ago. But I’m still actively engaged.
Anyway… Welcome to the haven
I just introduced myself too. I’m in the same boat as you are. I wish I knew more answers but I don’t and am I’m in a midst of the same crisis as you are. Welcome. coonic wrote:One of the things she mentioned to me was the $5 billion mall that is owned by the church. I knew I couldn’t take her at her word, so I started trying to find answers. Right now, it seems the more answers I seek, the more questions arise.
I have also been concerned about the mall, but I have worked my way through it. I figure “Why can’t the church do things to build up the city where it is headquartered?” The church has a vested interest to keep Salt Lake nice. It’s good for tourists to visit the city and especially Temple Square, which is a great missionary tool. The business arm of the church has money to spend, so it invests in the city. But then, why not build a beautiful park, museum, or something similar? Well, those things are also built and it’s okay to invest in business as well. It helps to revitalize the city and provids a job for many people. That’s not so bad.
coonic wrote:I don’t know if this middle path will work for me. I can’t turned a blind eye to some of the church does. How can I keep paying tithing to a church that I feel is more of a Corporation than anything? How can I hold callings where I would have to teach about things that I find difficult to grasp? I have been taught the black and white way of thinking and I don’t know if I can turn from that… I don’t know if I can be the buffet Mormon where I can pick what works for me and what doesn’t.
Not everyone here employs a middle way. It just doesn’t fit me. Though my faith has been deconstructed, I can accept all the official stuff in the church right now. I am still working through issues from the past, but I believe the church is the true church of Christ, I sustain the 15 as prophets, etc.I see the buffet differently. It does
notinclude “everything that has been said in our scriptures and by modern prophets and apostles.” It has only the official doctrine and policies of the church, and that smorgasbord is not too large. I put everything on my plate and eat as I am able. It will take more than a lifetime to finish it, but I’m not throwing any food away. coonic wrote:One of the things she mentioned to me was the $5 billion mall that is owned by the church. I knew I couldn’t take her at her word, so I started trying to find answers. Right now, it seems the more answers I seek, the more questions arise.
Ah the great and spacious building! I personally don’t think there is an excuse….if this is Gods church, then all the money is Gods and I can not imagine a scenario where God would want a big mall filled with high end goods (Porsche and Rolex stores!) and pictures of beautiful people wearing clothes he supposedly doesn’t approve of (would show their garments).
Matt 6:24: No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon
I find this especially irksome as they ask us to clean the chapels, temples, etc while getting out of the hospital business under the guise that the church needs to preserve its (Gods) money to assure it is used to forwards the 3 fold misson of the church is insulting, ridiculous, and deceitful. If the church has too much money hire Janitors (I loved our chapel janitor…I used to go talk to him all the time when I just needed someone to talk to as a teen).that helps people be self sufficient, mall…not so much.
coonic wrote:I don’t know if this middle path will work for me. I can’t turned a blind eye to some of the church does. How can I keep paying tithing to a church that I feel is more of a Corporation than anything? How can I hold callings where I would have to teach about things that I find difficult to grasp? I have been taught the black and white way of thinking and I don’t know if I can turn from that.
Some say the middle way is for people who can’t commit. I think the middle way is truly the “narrow is the way” path.
Black and white is to give yourself over without thought. If the plan is about free agency then one should expect to walk the balance beam in life….
The middle way is not easy. Many just dump the church, drink and party and live with the consequences, some become closed minded in the church to avoid the hard questions….and live with the consequences.
The middle means you have to examine every footstep and talk to god and act on your personal revelation….this was the intent of Joseph Smith and was re–iterated by Brigham Young and recently by Elder Uchtdorf and Kristofferson. If you are to be like God one day (yet another topic of controversy) then you will need to know the truth…not just be able to look down the cafeteria menu and order from a checklist. My two bits there.
coonic wrote:I know being in the church has brought to where I am today: I am healthy and have a Loving and Faithful husband, 3 beautiful children and all the other blessings I enjoy…. I don’t know if I can be the buffet Mormon where I can pick what works for me and what doesn’t. I guess that is my biggest feeling: I don’t know….
I have read similar words over and again …some as they were painfully written by my own hand as I first started this journey as well as from many others who have come since I stumbled onto these rocky shores on the island of misfit toys. Enjoy this place when you want to discuss survival in the church. For those times when you want to just spout off…there are facebook groups filled with folks who mostly have chosen to depart where you can find friends too…but they almost all are “out”
johnh wrote:coonic wrote:One of the things she mentioned to me was the $5 billion mall that is owned by the church. I knew I couldn’t take her at her word, so I started trying to find answers. Right now, it seems the more answers I seek, the more questions arise.
Ah the great and spacious building! I personally don’t think there is an excuse….if this is Gods church, then all the money is Gods and I can not imagine a scenario where God would want a big mall filled with high end goods (Porsche and Rolex stores!) and pictures of beautiful people wearing clothes he supposedly doesn’t approve of (would show their garments).
Matt 6:24: No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon
I find this especially irksome as they ask us to clean the chapels, temples, etc while getting out of the hospital business under the guise that the church needs to preserve its (Gods) money to assure it is used to forwards the 3 fold misson of the church is insulting, ridiculous, and deceitful. If the church has too much money hire Janitors (I loved our chapel janitor…I used to go talk to him all the time when I just needed someone to talk to as a teen).that helps people be self sufficient, mall…not so much.
coonic wrote:I don’t know if this middle path will work for me. I can’t turned a blind eye to some of the church does. How can I keep paying tithing to a church that I feel is more of a Corporation than anything? How can I hold callings where I would have to teach about things that I find difficult to grasp? I have been taught the black and white way of thinking and I don’t know if I can turn from that.
Some say the middle way is for people who can’t commit. I think the middle way is truly the “narrow is the way” path.
Black and white is to give yourself over without thought. If the plan is about free agency then one should expect to walk the balance beam in life….
The middle way is not easy. Many just dump the church, drink and party and live with the consequences, some become closed minded in the church to avoid the hard questions….and live with the consequences.
The middle means you have to examine every footstep and talk to god and act on your personal revelation….this was the intent of Joseph Smith and was re–iterated by Brigham Young and recently by Elder Uchtdorf and Kristofferson. If you are to be like God one day (yet another topic of controversy) then you will need to know the truth…not just be able to look down the cafeteria menu and order from a checklist. My two bits there.
coonic wrote:I know being in the church has brought to where I am today: I am healthy and have a Loving and Faithful husband, 3 beautiful children and all the other blessings I enjoy…. I don’t know if I can be the buffet Mormon where I can pick what works for me and what doesn’t. I guess that is my biggest feeling: I don’t know….
I have read similar words over and again …some as they were painfully written by my own hand as I first started this journey as well as from many others who have come since I stumbled onto these rocky shores on the island of misfit toys. Enjoy this place when you want to discuss survival in the church. For those times when you want to just spout off…there are facebook groups filled with folks who mostly have chosen to depart where you can find friends too…but they almost all are “out”
I loved this contribution to the conversation john
Coonic – welcome to the site! Quote:I tried to discuss a few of the issues I have been finding with my husband but he is not willing to investigate with me.
I wouldn’t force it, either for him or for yourself.
Quote:He feels like I am trying to prove the church wrong and I feel like he is turning a blind eye to things that aren’t adding up.
You are probably both right. We always lean one way or another, honestly, and you simply cannot
provethe church is right orwrong. My view is that it’s both, but that’s not a popular opinion at church obviously or one that you’ll hear in F&T meeting! For me, it doesn’t really matter. It’s true enough to be useful to me, and I know how to benefit from it despite its flaws. But that’s not the case for everyone at every time. Quote:He feels like perhaps my friend should’ve kept her feelings to herself but I feel that I was already on this path but she just opened the door.
There is an interesting social phenomenon. We do “lean” in a direction partly because of the social cues from people around us. We are unlikely to go completely our own way. So in expressing her view, she was validating that there are people who don’t believe, making it sound normal and acceptable. Your husband feels threatened by that because you’ve been on the same page, and now maybe you won’t be. That is difficult in a marriage. I would not underestimate how that impacts you both as a couple. Be respectful, go slowly, and listen to each other. The person with the most awareness has the most responsibility for how things go. Guess what? I think that’s you.
Quote:I don’t know if this middle path will work for me. I can’t turned a blind eye to some of the church does.
Remember what it feels like when you are a teenager and you see your parents’ flaws for the first time? You realize that you can’t just do what they say. They make mistakes. They let you down. You have to learn to make your own choices and not blindly follow their guidance. This is the same. But (hopefully) you still cherish and love your flawed parents. And as you age, you see how much a part of you they are, even though you hope you’ve done better than they did.
Quote:How can I keep paying tithing to a church that I feel is more of a Corporation than anything?
Two comments: 1) yes, the church has a real flaw in that it often focuses on solving first world problems, and 2) it was far worse in JS’s day when the leaders of the church didn’t have the experience to make fiscally sound decisions. Would you rather the church make good investments that yield dividends (e.g. the mall project) or that they make bad investments that lose money? I know those aren’t the only two alternatives, but donations to the poor don’t pay dividends that grow the 5 talents to 10.
Quote:How can I hold callings where I would have to teach about things that I find difficult to grasp?
Be authentic. Teach what you are comfortable teaching. Maybe that’s what is needed anyway. I had a great note from a girl’s mother who thanked me for teaching such a balanced perspective in my youth Sunday School class rather than just the party line. She said she would not have allowed her daughter to attend otherwise.
Quote:I have been taught the black and white way of thinking and I don’t know if I can turn from that.
A black & white perspective simply doesn’t serve anyone well in life. It is a recipe for poor decision making. Oversimplification is a pitfall to be avoided. Nothing is black & white. Come up with one example of something that is black & white, and I guarantee you that it’s not too difficult to come up with complexities and nuances to it.
Good luck to you, and welcome to the group! We are glad you are here.
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