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I would add to what Poppyseed said by restating that the only way I can think of to address this even more inclusively than the leadership already does is to allow the same activities for gay members as are allowed for single, straight members. I can’t see them loosening the restrictions much for straight members without shattering completely any semblance of a Law of Chastity. I hope gay members are allowed soon to hold hands, embrace, kiss, etc. without ANY hint of sin or transgression attached – but I’m not holding my breath for it to happen this year (in the immediately future). At the most fundamental level, I want equal treatment of all single members when it comes to matters of sexual conduct.
Thanks to each of you who have submitted comments. I appreciate so much your sincere, caring responses. Thank you especially George and Bridget. I realize that I am not alone in this trial — but like most trials — there are times I have felt so alone. It’s comforting to know others are going through similar experiences. I have often wished I could just get together with people who were struggling with this same issue — and just talk, vent, and weep. As a result, I am so grateful for this forum. I just wish I had had access to it a few years ago when I was going through so much turmoil and pain. If I had known what I know today, I would have told our therapist to jump in a lake! He’s a good man — just trying to do his job — but that therapy did not help anyone. In fact, it made a difficult situation even more painful. We were told so many things that ripped us apart — including the fact that we just had to have faith — lots and lots and lots of faith — and my son’s SSA would gradually go away! We believed and trusted. I hope the Church will start to become a little more open-minded about some of the psychological research, instead of relying on inconsistent LDS therapy. Part of my son’s and my disillusionment has been with the inaccuracies we have been fed. Even the scientific, psychological research admits this is an extremely complicated issue. We can glean, sift, accept, reject, and learn from that psychological research.
Poppyseed wrote:But they don’t want to be required to call evil “good” in order to be recognized as loving.
In the spirit of not letting statements go unchallenged since they will exist in perpetuity on the internet:
I can’t agree with the above statement. Are you insinuating that SSA or SSM is “evil”?
If heterosexuality is from God, than homosexuality is as well, since both are developed in the same way. I doubt anyone believes that “satan” tinkers with the biological, genetic, psychological in utero or infancy. Sure, evil people do evil things to infants, so this would come with exceptions.
The only reason that same-sex couples are “fornicating” is because they can’t legally get married. If they were allowed to formalize their relationship in the same way that opposite-sex couples can, they would be married and no longer “living in sin”. Society is perpetuating the “sin” by not allowing these relationships to be formalized in this way.
swimordie wrote:Poppyseed wrote:But they don’t want to be required to call evil “good” in order to be recognized as loving.
In the spirit of not letting statements go unchallenged since they will exist in perpetuity on the internet:
I can’t agree with the above statement. Are you insinuating that SSA or SSM is “evil”?
If heterosexuality is from God, than homosexuality is as well, since both are developed in the same way. I doubt anyone believes that “satan” tinkers with the biological, genetic, psychological in utero or infancy. Sure, evil people do evil things to infants, so this would come with exceptions.
The only reason that same-sex couples are “fornicating” is because they can’t legally get married. If they were allowed to formalize their relationship in the same way that opposite-sex couples can, they would be married and no longer “living in sin”. Society is perpetuating the “sin” by not allowing these relationships to be formalized in this way.
Perfectly said!
swimordie wrote:Poppyseed wrote:But they don’t want to be required to call evil “good” in order to be recognized as loving.
In the spirit of not letting statements go unchallenged since they will exist in perpetuity on the internet:
I can’t agree with the above statement. Are you insinuating that SSA or SSM is “evil”?
If heterosexuality is from God, than homosexuality is as well, since both are developed in the same way. I doubt anyone believes that “satan” tinkers with the biological, genetic, psychological in utero or infancy. Sure, evil people do evil things to infants, so this would come with exceptions.
The only reason that same-sex couples are “fornicating” is because they can’t legally get married. If they were allowed to formalize their relationship in the same way that opposite-sex couples can, they would be married and no longer “living in sin”. Society is perpetuating the “sin” by not allowing these relationships to be formalized in this way.
Amen Brother!
Thank you for the last few posts. When I think of my son, the last thing that comes into my mind is evil! He is about as Christian as anyone I know. I used to be so worried about his eternal salvation — that was part of the reason I was going through such hell — but now I feel peace about the hereafter. The Savior loves homosexuals as much as he loves heterosexuals. Is there going to be a higher standard for homosexuals in order to get into the Kingdom? I don’t think so. The judgement will be merciful and just! Thank heavens! Interesting posts. Through some very good private counseling, I have learned a couple of things in recent months that have really helped me. I don’t believe they are at odds with church teachings, but they are at odds with common perception and church practice.
The first thing is learning the ability to disconnect, that is, to understand what your sphere of responsibility is and act on that alone. At some point, our children’s problems, and yes, they all have problems, are their own challenges that God gave them. There comes a point that it’s not our job as parents to fix those problems. The same applies to parents, siblings, friends, etc.
Now here’s the concept that I had never thought of, and that is, that the act of disconnecting is actually an act of great faith. It means that we trust and acknowledge that God is in charge. I was brought up in the culture that said that we are responsible for everyone and everything and I found out that I had spent most of life in a miserable world of guilt. No one can really succeed when he/she feels guilt about every little thing they are not doing or feeling guilty for things that are outside their control and responsibility. How many mothers have you seen drive themselves crazy because their son didn’t go on a mission, or their daughter didn’t marry in the temple? The point is, that while that may not be what want, it is their issue, and if we can disconnect, we can find peace through faith in a greater plan.
Now here is the other great thing I learned, and it’s tied in to this whole ‘try to be perfect thing’. The principle is that we don’t have to go around apologizing for ‘being only human’, or in other words, spend out whole lives feeling guilty because we have shortcomings. The fact is, that we are human, BECAUSE GOD MADE US THAT WAY!!! I don’t mean to say we can’t improve, or work towards perfection, but I do think many of us, and myself especially, spent a lot of wasted effort feeling guilty about stupid things. Guilt is an energy robber. If there are serious things that we feel guilty about, things that hurt others, then the usefulness of guilt is as a motivator for change. If we just feel general overwhelming guilt, then something is wrong and it’s not productive. Acknowledging and accepting and rejoicing in our humanity is, I think, another act of faith. God loves us as we are, why can’t we love us as we are? Again, I think this a culture shift from our general practice, but I don’t think it’s anti-doctrinal in any way.
Anyway, just my thoughts; hope they are helpful.
silentstruggle wrote:Acknowledging and accepting and rejoicing in our humanity is, I think, another act of faith. God loves us as we are, why can’t we love us as we are?
Absolutely beautiful insight, silent.
There’s this thread in the spiritual section that is a wonderful continuation of your sentiments here:
Ophelia, please tell me you son has received the proper help to help him accept himself in a healthy way. So often when someone leaves the counseling the church offers, they don’t seek proper counseling to undo the damage that was caused. I also hope that he feels like he can still have a good relationship with God. Quite frankly, the hardest part of the whole thing, is that we just don’t know. Homosexuality is something that we are really just beginning to understand as a society and the church is often far behind in some of these social issues. People like to make judgements based on their limited knowledge. They don’t understand what it is like to have those feelings and tendencies. The absolute worst is when someone tells you that you can be fixed like you are sick or something. Thankfully, as people are becoming more vocal in the church, we are slowly, ever so slowly adopting a much more Christlike attitude in the church. Still a long way to go, but I think we are heading in the right direction. Just keep loving him. The Savior will always love you both. I might add that some of you resigned your membership over California Proposition 8. I stopped attending church immediately upon realizing that the Church was involved. For me, it wasn’t the spiritual way this was handled it was the political. I work in an Endocrinology Laboratory where many patients have been diagnosed with disorders of sexual development and differentiation known as “sexual variance”. Some of these patients suffer from inherited genetic disorders, others had mothers with thyroid disease, the list goes on and on.
I realized that these patients had finally achieved equality – they were being treated exactly equal to the laboratory rats in our studies.
I decided that rather than resign from the Church, I would resign from the ridiculous political power struggles that brought us California Proposition 8 and go back to the Doctrine and Covenants teachings on the Constitution – that ANYTHING MORE or less than this cometh of evil. The Constitution is exactly was the D&C defines it to be and is divinely ordained.
D&C 98: 5 (5-7). 5 And that a law of the land which is constitutional, supporting that principle of freedom in maintaining rights and privileges, belongs to all mankind, and is justifiable before me.
D&C 101: 77 (77, 80).
77 According to the laws and a constitution of the people, which I have suffered to be established, and should be maintained for the rights and protection of all flesh, according to just and holy principles;
The Official Scriptures of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints
Notice how the D&C uses the term, “all flesh” rather than “man”, “mankind” or “woman”. Very few verses are that gender neutral. This verses may suggest protection for the unborn such as fetuses and for intersex children for whom clear gender has not been established. It is very, very inclusive.
Ophelia – My heart goes out to both you and your son. My disaffection with the church also started with Prop 8, and I am not even a CA resident. Thank you for sharing this. I sincerely hope that your son is able to find acceptance and love in a community of faith. Ophelia it hurts to read this thread recognizing just how much pain your son, you, other mothers and sons and daughter and fathers have all suffered, I am a Canadian and wonderfully isolated from things like Prop 8 and we accept gay marriages up here and the place hasn’t fallen apart. I would like to suggest a small action plan, I don’t know if it is appropriate here but I will understand if the moderators give me a kick upside the head.
[Moderator: OK; consider it done.
California is going to go through another version of Prop 8 either in 2010 or 2012, already there is chatter out in the internet about the gay organizations getting prepared and trying to decide the best options. I applaud them and their courage, I simply can’t understand why the Church can’t at least be comfortable with civil marriage for gays, after all if they were able to have the same rights as the heterosexuals it would give them a better chance at a stable family life. We could have all that energy back in our wards with gay couples just as faithful and full of service as everyone else.
Anyway, wouldn’t it be wonderful if the Church as an organization DIDN’t get involved in the next California proposition??
[Suggestion for organized campaign deleted.]
My thoughts are with you. I spent the last 10 years of my teaching career as a counselor and was frequently working to help gay kids keep positive and forward looking. It is way too much of burden to bear when you add in all the guilt that the Church can bring down.
Bill, I understand your suggestion, but this really isn’t the place for planning or organizing campaigns – of ANY kind. That simply is not part of our mission. Fwiw, I also hope the Church as an organization is not involved the next time like it was the last time – for some of the same reasons as you but probably for different ones, as well.
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