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Hi Everybody, I am very grateful to have found this site. I am seeking advice and help, as it seems at times I’m quite alone in my current predicament. This will probably be long so I appreciate your reading it.
I’m a lifelong member of the church in my early 40s and grew up in Utah County. I enjoyed church most of the time, my entire family was active, married in the temple and served missions. I really enjoyed and loved the leaders in my ward I had growing up, and especially enjoyed visited some of the older members of the ward. They were always so complimentary and interested, and as a teenager, I loved the attention and did my best to be helpful to them.
After my mission, I went to BYU, dated enough, and felt pressure to get married (perhaps on account that my entire family was married and I didn’t want to become a “menace to society”). In my single’s ward, I always tried to serve my best in whatever calling was given me, but put a lot of pressure on myself that in retrospect I shouldn’t have (a lot around home teaching, etc.). I did my best to get through school responsibly, met my wife and got married in my last semester.
We continued throughout a few married wards, and have been in our current ward for over 10 years. We felt that we were guided to live where we are. We live around very good people and have developed some good friendships, although probably not close enough to ever discuss this kind of thing with them. We both continued to serve in callings as best we could, had a couple of great kids, and worked through life’s challenges. My wife is truly my best friend – non-judgmental, understanding, a good listener, and just so strong in many ways. I can also truly say I care about a lot of people in our ward. I seek people out on Sunday and other places, and can honestly say that talking with them (on spiritual or temporal subjects) is a great “balm” to my soul, as weird as that may sound.
Over the past couple of years, however, I made a series of poor decisions. I voluntarily confessed and counseled with my bishop and wife on each occasion, worked through his recommendations, did my best to repent as I had been taught and practiced my whole life. The last of those poor decisions was deemed serious enough, however, to hold a disciplinary council late last year. Having participated in councils before and knowing why they were held, I was a bit surprised at this decision as I didn’t think it quite as serious as those, but went and was honest and forthright. I was asked to recount in detail each of my three primary mistakes to bishop and his counselors (and the ward clerk), which I did. They asked questions of me and gave me suggestions (some of which was really head-scratchingly out there).
When I returned for the decision, I was told I’d be disfellowshipped. A comment the bishop made then that I still struggle with was that he came into this council thinking his decision would be some sort of informal probation but that he was prompted after our meeting that it should be disfellowshipment. So was I not remorseful enough? Was it because I didn’t cry? Was I too proud? (The bishop later told me he didn’t think I was repentant.) I was also told that the decision was made primarily because of the repetitive pattern of the three incidents.
So now I’ve been disfellowshipped for a few months. I am trying not to minimize the seriousness of my sins and accept my responsibility for them. I know that I could’ve easily avoided all this by making the right choices. And I understand that people are imperfect, so I shouldn’t be too harsh (even though I’m still working on that one). Yet, I can say now that I have entered my crisis of faith. If anything, being disfellowshipped has given me opportunities to think and see many things from a different point of view.
I’ve tried to stay active in ways that I can. I’ve gone to every sacrament meeting I could make (although I’m not sad when I’m out of town). I help put up chairs, I help people move, I still seek out people I love and admire at church and at public and engage them, I go to choir practice – continuing those things that are a “balm” to my soul. I participate in family and couple prayer (although they’re very basic), occasional FHE, try to be involved in my wife and children’s lives, and help out around the house. But I don’t say personal prayers, read the Book of Mormon (which I truly believe), and admittedly I am often angry at God.
During this crisis, I often find myself asking:
– Why does church discipline feel like shaming? Everyone says it’s confidential, but it’s obvious to all around me that I don’t take the sacrament, was released from HT and my calling. I can understand not going to the temple, speaking/praying from the pulpit perhaps, but why can’t I pray at choir practice (was asked to and had to pawn it off on someone) or church bball games? What good does restricting supposedly spiritual activities do for me? Am I supposed to feel so ashamed that I would never do those things again?
– Why does God entrust the salvation of others to imperfect people? I myself used to preach it’s the gospel that’s true, not the people. But how can bishopric leaders called of God arrive at a decision of disfellowshipment, and then avoid talking to me for three months because they are afraid I’m upset at the decision? Wouldn’t you be inspired to seek out the lost sheep because his whole spiritual world as he knows it has just collapsed? I met with the bishop for the first time last Sunday since the November disfellowshipment, and that was because my wife texted him and suggested he should meet with me. In the meeting, he confirmed that he and his counselors were afraid to talk to me. What, am I some kind of monster? I know people are imperfect, but sheesh.
– How can I believe in a God whom I feel hasn’t helped me overcome my mistakes? I have made every effort to follow the counsel of the bishopric, see therapists, read scriptures and pray more, exercise faith, etc. He has seemingly helped others so what is wrong with me? The apparent lack of help only tells me that something must be wrong with me, if I’m doing things that have helped others, and they don’t give me the same results.
– Why should I ever take another calling or invest in the church again? The more responsibility I take in callings, the more I’m held accountable when I mess up. The bishop admitted to me I wouldn’t be disfellowshipped if I’d been inactive. How does that make sense? “To much is given, much is required” can only go so far.
– Many people have told me I will get all that Heavenly Father has as my reward if I endure to the end and stay faithful. I struggle with this. It doesn’t necessarily serve as motivation to me.
– Why is there a hierarchy of sins? How can I be disfellowshipped for voluntarily coming forward and trying to repent, while the other guy who does the same thing doesn’t confess, lives a lie, and then several years later confesses to no penalty because significant time has passed? Why should I be punished and shamed while he skates?
I apologize for the rant. I’m sure many of you here think I’m just immature and won’t take responsibility for what I’ve done. I’m really trying. But I’m also really fighting my own pride too. I am very blessed to have a wonderful wife and best friend who actually agrees with a lot of my complaints and is a wonderful support, and kids who don’t judge me and love me as their dad. I guess if that is all I have, I should be ever grateful and the rest doesn’t really matter.
Thanks for listening.
Welcome….hope u can find some answers or at least some calm here. There are some interesting threads in general discussions right now that you may find worth reading. Goodluck with it all. Welcome, I have set in on several church courts and all I can say is that the outcomes are not consistent and that not all the members of the council feel the same. The BP or SP have the final say, which makes sense and the others on the council are just asked to support that decision. It makes for some uncomfortable meetings. I know it is hard for you right now and to have a faith crisis on top of that makes it worst. My heart goes out to you. It is good to own up to your mistakes and it takes a lot of courage to confess to others. It is great that your wife loves and supports you and maybe for awhile just concentrate on that and try not to let the other things bring you down too much. Just take care of yourself and remember your own worth. You know if your are a good person or not. I don’t know if that helps but please know that we are not too iudgemental here and hopefully you won’t feel so alone.
A formal repentance process is supposed to help you feel you’ve been thoroughly forgiven so you can leave it in the past. It sounds like they went this route because it was repeated – had you confessed the same thing previously? If not, I don’t know that I agree you were unrepentant just because it was repeated. Will you do whatever it was again? If not, then you’ve repented. I’m sorry you are going through this. I’m sure some bishops err on the side of caution. While it’s a pain for now, my husband once told me (when he was exec scy) that I would absolutely not believe how many members were undergoing some sort of disciplinary / counseling discussion at a given time. So when it’s you, you feel like the pariah of the ward, seen by all, but I truly never notice this kind of thing. Most people really do not.
A lot of this is manmade. What I say to you is DO pray, DO read your scriptures etc and DON’T be angry with God.
They can’t take those two things away from you, and you shouldn’t abandon them.
God loves you, always will. But God also know everything about you, and everything about everyone else. Therefore God can make a fairer judgment than man ever will, and he also knows all the things about other people that are hidden from view and not subjected to church discipline.
BTW it doesn’t bother me if someone doesn’t take sacrament, it is their business. If I start checking who does and doesn’t I am a pious hypocrite.
yosemitesam wrote:…Over the past couple of years, however, I made a series of poor decisions. I voluntarily confessed and counseled with my bishop and wife on each occasion, worked through his recommendations, did my best to repent as I had been taught and practiced my whole life. The last of those poor decisions was deemed serious enough, however, to hold a disciplinary council late last year. Having participated in councils before and knowing why they were held,
I was a bit surprised at this decision as I didn’t think it quite as serious as those, but went and was honest and forthright. I was asked to recount in detail each of my three primary mistakes…When I returned for the decision, I was told I’d be disfellowshipped… So was I not remorseful enough? Was it because I didn’t cry? Was I too proud? (The bishop later told me he didn’t think I was repentant.) I was also told that the decision was made primarily because of the repetitive pattern of the three incidents.During this crisis, I often find myself asking:…-
Why does church discipline feel like shaming? Everyone says it’s confidential, but it’s obvious to all around meAm I supposed to feel so ashamed that I would never do those things again?…Why does God entrust the salvation of others to imperfect people? I myself used to preach it’s the gospel that’s true, not the people. But how can bishopric leaders called of God arrive at a decision of disfellowshipment, and then avoid talking to me for three months because they are afraid I’m upset at the decision?…What, am I some kind of monster? I know people are imperfect, but sheesh…- Why is there a hierarchy of sins? How can I be disfellowshipped for voluntarily coming forward and trying to repent, while the other guy who does the same thing doesn’t confess, lives a lie, and then several years later confesses to no penalty because significant time has passed?I’m sorry to hear about your experience. As far as I’m concerned, it feels like shaming and seems overly harsh and unfair because it is. I think the general idea behind all this is that feeling terrible about sins is supposedly an important part of the repentance process because that will hopefully prevent you from repeating the same sins again and then you will be permanently cured and it will all end up being worth it. The problem is that this approach simply does not work nearly as much as they probably think it will to prevent people from doing the same thing again at some point anyway and it results in unnecessary pain and suffering for those involved in many cases regardless of the final outcome.
This kind of thing is the main reason I didn’t get married in the temple. At the time I thought I could either confess to the bishop and go through an extended guilt-trip and grovelling process or I could just get married and have my worst continued behavior (according the Church) magically changed into no sin at all basically overnight. So it was a fairly easy and obvious choice to make. Sure I had to go through some public shaming anyway simply by not being married in the temple and maybe most Church leaders would say my worst sins are still “unresolved” but now I don’t see why most of this should be any of their business to begin with and I think confessing anything to priesthood leaders is generally a bad idea.
To me the whole Church discipline process looks like a left over man-made relic from the bygone era of frontier justice. Nowadays if someone breaks the law then why not just let the police and legal system handle it? If someone abuses or cheats on their spouse they will have to work it out on their own anyway possibly with the help of marriage counselors if their marriage has any chance of being saved and I don’t see how involving Church leaders in it is ever going to help the situation in most cases. For almost anything less than that I don’t see why it is worth worrying that much about in the first place if little or no obvious harm is being done. It’s only human to make mistakes and fall short of our expectations, sometimes repeatedly, but it’s not healthy to be an extreme perfectionist about it and blow things out of proportion.
No judgement from us. None of us fit well in a true believing Mormon crowd. Christ put his arms around the sinners like me and you, and asked people not to judge them. He preferred to hang out with sinners to piously talking about people in Ward Welfare meetings. God loves us. Feel free to love yourself. If you hate yourself you make the whole process worse for everybody and you appear more guilty than you are. Choose to be cheerful, and redouble your efforts to be selfless and loving. Put your family first, your long term happiness is tied to them more than anyone else.
Welcome Sam! My first thought is that it sounds like your wife is amazing and that she has not shamed you or turned her figurative back on you as you might feel that others have done. Not everyone has that kind of support at home – be thankful for it.
I would like to direct you to some previous threads that deal with the topic of church discipline and more specifically excommunication.
1.
http://forum.staylds.com/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=2230&hilit=excommunication This is talking about the purposes of church discipline and how successful it might be. The thread asks how many excommunicated people make it back to full fellowship, that answer isn’t found in that thread. You would need to go to #2.
2.
http://forum.staylds.com/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=2866&hilit=+excommunication Only 3 out of 100 excommunicated people ever get rebaptised. This link is all about the excommunication of Hyrum Smith, a prominant businessman (founded Franklin planners) and church leader. Some of my comments on this article follow.
Quote:I was also thinking about the 4 1/2 hour interview he went through on his way back and how it took extra long because he didn’t cry. This reminded me of when I did something wrong in grade school and the principle gave me the choice between a suspension or a spanking. I chose the spanking because it was shorter. He started spanking and I held back tears (because that’s the manly thing to do) and he spanked and spanked until finally I could stand it no more. I started to cry and the spanking stopped. Apparently the spanking could have gone on for an undeterminable length until the tears flowed for that was the intended effect. Had I known that, I would have started sobbing as soon as the principle first lifted his hand.
His thought that the two most welcome groups in the church are the “righteous and the liars” is very fitting. It would also seem that being a liar is a helpful skill to have in the repentance process, or at least knowing how to perform the role of contrition.
3.
http://forum.staylds.com/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=3332&hilit=excommunication Link #3 will take you to a thread discussing the doctrine of excommunication. Although there is evidence that the practice existed from ancient times. I am not convinced that it has any effect on our eternal welfare…
Quote:I am aware of several cases where an LDS person was excommunicated for political reasons and the action was later reversed post-death. I am also aware of one case where an individual was excommunicated and then after a period of patient and humble efforts to appeal the decision had the excommunication overturned. In light of these circumstances, I have pondered what the state of the soul is before, during, and after an excommunication. Does an excommunication lock the individual’s spirit into purgatory or spirit prison? Does a reversal and a restoration of all previous “blessings” unlock the spiritual prison door?
I have concluded that God doesn’t care. I believe that God will deal with the individual based upon His relationship with that person and not be particularly swayed by our efforts to communally reject that person.
Now back to your particular situation:
Tim wrote:Christ put his arms around the sinners like me and you, and asked people not to judge them. He preferred to hang out with sinners to piously talking about people in Ward Welfare meetings. God loves us. Feel free to love yourself. If you hate yourself you make the whole process worse for everybody and you appear more guilty than you are. Choose to be cheerful, and redouble your efforts to be selfless and loving. Put your family first, your long term happiness is tied to them more than anyone else.
Completely agree!
I also recommend not letting on to anyone (especially anyone in leadership) about your faith crisis right now. I believe that the quickest way to get through this is to keep your head down, jump through the hoops presented, and show appropriate contrition.
It seems to me that being under church discipline seems to give the local leadership license to get into your business much more than the regular member. What might they infer about your repentance if you start asking questions about weird church history or stop paying tithing?
Hang in there. What you are going through sucks – but you can get through to the other side. Fight the good fight!
Welcome! I have no additional wisdom, but I do want to echo what others have said. Hang in there, and work through your issues only with those whom you trust completely. You are building your own faith now, and it doesn’t have to be a public process in any way.
Hang onto your wife. It sounds like you married a wonderful woman.
Welcome yosemitesam, Hopefully you won’t find too many judgmental people here. This forum has been a sanity-saver for me, and the best thing for my testimony in 20 years. It’s also given me some perspective and helpful everyday tips for how to interact with my true-believing wife.
Just a few things concerning sin / church discipline. The church is really really good at dishing out guilt. It’s taken me most of my life to realize that I don’t really need church approval but rather I need to feel comfortable with my relationship with Heavenly Father. Some of the things I used to think were terrible sins I have simply changed my point of view and don’t think they are sins. Less guilt in life has been a good thing for me.
Church discipline is a funny thing. I know a bishop who threatened an adult woman with excommunicating her because of masturbation. Granted, I don’t think that’s typical, and she did sort of use it as a device to mock him and the church, but it’s an example of the previous statement that not all church courts are equal. I know a stake president who would do everything he could to NOT excommunicate someone and and I know another who was pretty “generous” with his excommunications because he perceived it as protecting the church.
Also interesting is that the “higher” up you are in the church, the more serious the sin. A teenager may have to skip the sacrament because of “petting”, a returned missionary might be disfellowshipped, a married faithful member may be disfellowshipped or excommunicated, and a leader would surely be excommunicated. It’s also interesting that lapsed time between the sin and the confession is a consideration. If a man committed adultery 30 years ago, literally nothing may happen to him. But if that same man confessed to the same sin committed a week ago, he’d probably be excommunicated.
Anyways, I look forward to your insights and contributions to this forum.
Sam, I’m sorry you are going through this experience. I wish I had some tidbit of wisdom that will make you feel better (I have found so much comfort spending hours reading this forum), but I simply do not have any more than what you have already shared. I have watched as good friends have fallen away from the church as they have attempted to go through this same process. It breaks my heart to see them lose something that once brought them so much joy. The process is far from perfect as are the men administering it. But it sounds like you have a great partner willing to stick with you through it.
Best of luck.
Thanks for sharing your story.
Welcome, I have set in on several church courts and all I can say is that the outcomes are not consistent and that not all the members of the council feel the same. The BP or SP have the final say, which makes sense and the others on the council are just asked to support that decision. It makes for some uncomfortable meetings. I know it is hard for you right now and to have a faith crisis on top of that makes it worst. My heart goes out to you. It is good to own up to your mistakes and it takes a lot of courage to confess to others. It is great that your wife loves and supports you and maybe for awhile just concentrate on that and try not to let the other things bring you down too much. Just take care of yourself and remember your own worth. You know if your are a good person or not. I don’t know if that helps but please know that we are not too iudgemental here and hopefully you won’t feel so alone.
Thank you everyone for your supportive words and imparted wisdom. There are many things I will take and utilize in my efforts. Thanks for sharing your story and welcome to the forum. I love this forum above all others on the ‘bloggernacle’ because it is compassionate and supportive. There is a good diversity of faith expressions here. We don’t always agree, but we do (usually) show respect. The alternative views have helped me reposition my faith (at a time when I was ready to throw it all away). I wanted to share an experience that may or may not help.
A few years ago I was a branch president. A melch’ priesthood holder (RM), a single sister and a semi-active aaronic priesthood holding man came to me to confess the same ‘discretion’ over the course of about 6-9 months.
Each of them were dealt with by me in different ways. At the time I was praying very, very hard to know what best to do. It was incredibly uncomfortable having to make decisions on other people’s behalf. I don’t know why each person got a different treatment, but I did feel at each time it was the right thing to do.
For one of them we held a branch level court and the outcome was being disfellowshipped. Again, a very difficult decision and one I hope I managed to get some divine guidance for. We prayed a lot. Perhaps we were influenced by the fact that the person didn’t see it as a big deal and felt we were over-reacting. Perhaps I was influenced by the desire to teach them a lesson and help them see the gravity of their choices.
I’m sad to report that I was rubbish in the follow-up with the disfellowshipped member. We had a few meetings but I wasn’t as close to them as I should have been. I know that it was, in part, because I felt awkward at the impact it had on their life and testimony. I wish I’d done better than I did.
They were refellowshipped 9 months later by the BP who replaced me. The BP mentioned to me later that he felt the decision to be a little excessive and would have probably done something less formal. My clerk at the time (an old former Temple President) also felt I’d been excessive.
Why would God entrust his children to such an unpredictable framework? I guess we’re all he has to work with! If we accept that the intention of the world’s design was to have relative isolation to grow in, then we have to accept we’ll sometimes have to muddle through and make the best of a bad lot.
When I reflect on my decisions as BP. I hope that I was influenced by the heavens, but in my recent ‘faith realignment’ (which came later) I’ve come to the conclusion that there are always three dimensions to any leader’s behaviour… From the prophet through to a Deacon’s quorum president:
1) The person’s own attitudes based on ‘nurture’ and (perhaps) their spiritual, eternal individual ‘nature.’ Some people are simply ‘born’ with more compassion/love etc. Their parents, friends and society will also have a big influence on this.
2) The person’s perceptions of the expectations of the calling, often based on how they’ve seen others do it or instruction from the handbook or those they report to and have been trained by. Sometimes this “old knowledge” can be a good or bad thing depending on the source.
3) God’s whispered will. Even when praying, the noise from ‘1’ and ‘2’ can drown out the quiet voice of God. Also, given in the church we are taught to study it out and then seek inspiration, there’s every chance that the options we ask the heavens to affirm will be defined (and constrained) by our attitudes in ‘1’ and ‘2.’
I’ve sometimes thought a missionaries badge epitomises how leaders behave. Their badge carries 3 names. ‘Elder’ (their calling, with it’s reputation, expectations and unique environment)
‘Surname’ (their personal identity, character, testimony and cultural attitudes)
‘Jesus Christ’ (prominently displayed within the name of the church. The message and gospel they are supposed to follow and person they should model their behaviour on).
Is there any merit at all to church courts. Do we become better disciples through more discipline?
I’m sure it’s often badly and unequally applied. But I also think there’s a certain symbolism to it. Apologies if this cuts a bit too close… But if sin is the actions which hurt others or ourselves and the way we distance ourselves from God, then a period of being in formal or informal probation is a symbol of being distanced from worshipping God. Maybe it’s not about punishing people, but creating an environment that represents the spiritual implications.
Perhaps the reason an active person needs more punitive treatment is they are already close to God in other ways, so are given the opportunity to experience the other extreme. Perhaps those who spent several years in a spiritual wilderness before confessing need no further action, because they are already very familiar with the feeling of distance from God.
Maybe… I can only give you thoughts based on experience and speculation. And I may well be wrong and making too many allowances on all counts.
Thanks for sharing Mackay11. I didn’t agree with everything, but i do feel that I am more able to understand the mindset behind church courts after reading your perspective. I especially liked the following:
mackay11 wrote:Why would God entrust his children to such an unpredictable framework? I guess we’re all he has to work with! If we accept that the intention of the world’s design was to have relative isolation to grow in, then we have to accept we’ll sometimes have to muddle through and make the best of a bad lot.
I know that I am really such a floundering work in progress…I will try to be tolerant and forgiving of those around me. (even if they hold a position of leadership)
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