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wordsleuth23 wrote:
Doesn’t that just strengthen the argument that Mormonism, like all religion, is man-made? I can see how various elements of an LDS lifestyle are beneficial, and can help one be happy, but can it ever be real? For me, I need the Church to be real in order for it to help me.
I think you may have answered your own question. Assuming religion is man-made (and that’s a simple assumption), there must be a reason man is drawn to religion, God, belief systems, etc. If part of the answer is to be “beneficial”, as you point out, and “can help one be happy”, can’t that be reason enough?
Your argument of “need the church to be real” sounds like the opposite of what you hear in church, that the church is “true”. What does “true” even mean? What does “real” mean? That they are who they say they are? Are any of us exactly who we say we are? (of course, here at staylds.com we are
😆 )It’s a pretty high standard to meet when it’s man-made. So, just because the church claims to literally be led by God Himself, we all “know” that’s probably not the case. But who does? Or who is? We’re all here on a journey to learn, mostly by making our own mistakes. So is the church. (Lots of mistakes) Are they trying to be better? Maybe, who knows? Does it benefit me, help me be happy, as you stated? Maybe. Only I know. And God, if there is one/s
swimordie wrote:
Your argument of “need the church to be real” sounds like the opposite of what you hear in church, that the church is “true”. What does “true” even mean? What does “real” mean? That they are who they say they are? Are any of us exactly who we say we are? (of course, here at staylds.com we are😆 )
To me, real would mean literal, i.e., that when I die, there are 3 degrees of heaven, and I will go to one of them; that I will have an eternal family; that the Priesthood works; that is what I mean by real. If the Church is real, then what good is it? You’re right, we–human animals–are drawn to religion, but the answer to why doesn’t seem terribly complex. For eons, we had no way of explaining our existence; now, we have have science to answer most questions. Obviously, there are certain existential questions that science can’t answer, but it has certainly filled the knowledge gap considerably. For me, be raised in the Church, the literal truth/realness was what made it special, and what made it help. If I know/believe that the concept of prayer and the priesthood are man made, what good does that do me in a time a real need? If there isn’t an actual God ready to supernaturally intervene, what good do these forms of supernatural supplication do me? Ignorance is bliss; that is how religion makes people happy. This world is unbelievable messed up, and believing a better one awaits us can increase happiness; believing we will really see our loved ones again is what makes the believe in eternity a happy one. When these beliefs become metaphorical, what good are they to a former believer? I feel like I’m tainted because I believed in literal truth for so long; the benefits of religion are no longer available to me. I don’t believe or advocate the stance of new-atheists, i.e., I don’t believe religion will ever be eradicated from humanity, and I don’t believe it should be. The reason I feel that way is because I know that when one believes God is real, it can help them deal with turmoil. Once that belief in reality is gone, what good is religion to me? Other than cultural associations, socialization, and moving help, what good is the Church to me if I don’t believe it is “real”? Swimwordie, how do you gain from your belief in a man-made, metaphorical religion? I assume you once thought of it as real/true? I would love some insight from you or anyone else reading this. I go to church with my wife and kids to support them, and to keep my wife happy, but I get nothing out of it but heart burn. Listening to lessons in Gospel Doctrine about the evils of secular learning nearly cause aneurysms, or hearing people rip Korihor for questioning things, and extolling the virtues of blind faith. How do I learn to cope/benefit from the Church?
wordsleuth23 wrote:Swimwordie, how do you gain from your belief in a man-made, metaphorical religion? I assume you once thought of it as real/true? I would love some insight from you or anyone else reading this. I go to church with my wife and kids to support them, and to keep my wife happy, but I get nothing out of it but heart burn. Listening to lessons in Gospel Doctrine about the evils of secular learning nearly cause aneurysms, or hearing people rip Korihor for questioning things, and extolling the virtues of blind faith. How do I learn to cope/benefit from the Church?
Well, since I probably posted this exact question a couple months ago, I may not be the most help. I’m pretty much exactly like you (which I think I alluded to in another thread), I’m going to church because I don’t want to lose three hours with my family every Sunday. And, I try to get some fellowship in the very definition form of the word.
I will say that no matter what you do believe in, don’t believe in, have proof for, don’t have proof for, ultimately is personal. I put it in another post, but I saw a great movie, “Moon”. It was a very interesting take on existentialism and meaning. It demonstrated clearly (at least to me) that we all create our own meaning. The meaning of life. The meaning of love. The meaning of meaning, even. The meaning of God. If, in the exploration of personal meaning, I can find insight in religion, mormonism, catholocism, atheism, then I am open to that insight. If I find myself in a place I may or may not want to be (EQ), I will attempt to remain open to others insight or my own personal epiphany brought on by the asinine comment from the front row.
This is going to sound self-serving, or butt-kissing but I’ve actually learned “to cope/benefit from the church” right here at staylds.com. I know, it sounds stupid, but it’s true.
I’ll explain. I had all of the same cognitive dissonance problems and could not bring myself to overcome them. And I was obsessed. I couldn’t stop studying anything and everything mormon related, religion related, etc. But I couldn’t shake the bitterness. This stinking church and their “know everything” and really don’t know crap. I was stuck. Bad. Obviously, I had found John Dehlin’s stuff and it lead me here. It didn’t seem like a good fit at first, but it’s changed my perspective on so many things and I’ve learned so much. And I get to feed that intellectual side of myself with people who are actually intellectually honest, which initially sounds oxymoronic in the mormon context.
Now, when I go to church I don’t have to turn intellectual cartwheels till my head explodes because I get that intellectual drug here. My fix. In more ways than one.
swimordie wrote:Thanks for the reply. I hope to find myself where you are at, at some point. I want to go to Church and possibly benefit; I want to go to Church and not be driven crazy. Until my dad showed this website–2 days ago–I had stopped being consumed by Mormonism for the most part. I have been consumed by a drive for knowledge, reading everything related to religion–philosophy, neuroscience, anthropology, sociology–that I can get my hands on, but I had stopped reading anything directly related to Mormonism. My frustrations did dampen some when I stopped studying so much, but they flare up when a particularly bad lesson is given, or comments are made that deplore science/knowledge. I admire your ability to change; finding a way to cope with church is something I hope to gain from this website. It’s too bad that we can’t all be in the same ward; I think Church would be a lot more fun that way.
I would also like to bear my testimony that the StayLDS forum is true. Just kidding. Sort of. I’ve found this forum seriously stretching, inspiring, and positive for me. About the truth, let me say that the church isn’t all as false as that. When I look at your list, wordsleuth, I can honestly say about some of those things that I think the church does a better job than most of approximating difficult truths:
“3 degrees of heaven”. Well actually three plus two subs. Of course that’s just a model. But the reality is there is a place for everybody in heaven.
- “I will go to one of them”. Sure you will. If you don’t know that yet, either start seeking, asking, and knocking with your new perspective or don’t worry about it. Either way is fine with me.
- Eternal family. Well, love lasts. I can say that much. Sure, the legalism is out of order, but you always knew that, didn’t you?
- Priesthood works. Sure it does.
We have a recent thread on thatYeah. You chose easy things. And maybe you are too new to your walk to have distilled it down more succinctly, so forgive me for playing with you. I am sounding patronizing. Forgive me.
Here’s how I look at it: The LDS baptism isn’t really necessary to enter “the pearly gates”. The LDS Church doesn’t really have a message everyone on earth needs to hear (though it may have elements that could help most people). And the LDS Church is dark about answers that are found more clearly elsewhere. But that doesn’t make the LDS Church false. Yes, some key premises are false. But the message isn’t false. It’s a good church. It has some fundamentally true insights into God, Man, and Eternity. And maybe there’s no better church. It’s possible.
wordsleuth23 wrote:It’s too bad that we can’t all be in the same ward; I think Church would be a lot more fun that way.
Yeah. It’s easy when you forget about church. But it’s there every Sunday. There you are in Sunday School either frustrated (my case) or rolling your eyes. And that’s where this forum can help.
wordsleuth23 wrote:swimordie wrote:
Thanks for the reply. I hope to find myself where you are at, at some point. I want to go to Church and possibly benefit; I want to go to Church and not be driven crazy. Until my dad showed this website–2 days ago–I had stopped being consumed by Mormonism for the most part. I have been consumed by a drive for knowledge, reading everything related to religion–philosophy, neuroscience, anthropology, sociology–that I can get my hands on, but I had stopped reading anything directly related to Mormonism. My frustrations did dampen some when I stopped studying so much, but they flare up when a particularly bad lesson is given, or comments are made that deplore science/knowledge. I admire your ability to change; finding a way to cope with church is something I hope to gain from this website. It’s too bad that we can’t all be in the same ward; I think Church would be a lot more fun that way.Hi Steve (Btw, I got your PM…loved it and will respond tomorrow); I agree, we should form our own ward. Wouldn’t that be a blast! I would even look forward to attending! But I insist on wine for the “only true” sacrament. Lol!
Oh I can relate to the being “driven crazy” process. There was a time that after “learning” what I did, I continued attending with the subtle intention of changing the church from within. Al my friends and family were attending, so it all made sense. But like you, I dreaded hearing the lessons and talks that I felt were “just not true.”
I had begun hiking in the Cottonwood Canyons fairly regularly, and decided one Sunday to hike for 3 hours, then get home when the fam did (from church) in time for dinner. As we sat at the table, it was clear to me that my three hours in the mountain were much more uplifting and spiritual than what they had experienced. For me, it was a sign. Besides my son’s farewell and homecoming meetings, that was the last time I have attended.
Others here have taken a different path for them, and I respect that. For me, it was clear I found spirituality in places other than a meeting house. It had consequences, but I still believe 10 years later it was the right choice for me.
Good luck finding yours!
~Rix
Rix wrote:I had begun hiking in the Cottonwood Canyons fairly regularly, and decided one Sunday to hike for 3 hours, then get home when the fam did (from church) in time for dinner. As we sat at the table, it was clear to me that my three hours in the mountain were much more uplifting and spiritual than what they had experienced. For me, it was a sign.
Great post, Rix. Your part about hiking really struck a chord with me. I have started spending more time outside and with nature and really have felt spiritually connected by that, more so than my church meetings (although I like going to take the sacrament). Makes me think how Enos and Nephi had such “temple-like” experiences in nature…oh yeah, and JS.
What is it about nature that draws us spiritually? Any ideas?
Heber13 wrote:What is it about nature that draws us spiritually? Any ideas?
Great question! For me, it’s the opposite of egoism, you just have the sense of humility and simpleness, a very small part of something very, very big. Also, for modern man, it feels quite primeval, like the first man emerging from the cave, creating meaning for him/herself. Mmmmm, earthy.
swimordie wrote:Heber13 wrote:What is it about nature that draws us spiritually? Any ideas?
Great question! For me, it’s the opposite of egoism, you just have the sense of humility and simpleness, a very small part of something very, very big. Also, for modern man, it feels quite primeval, like the first man emerging from the cave, creating meaning for him/herself. Mmmmm, earthy.
Sorry, wordsleuth…I didn’t mean to take away from your intro. I’ll start this discussion on a new topic under general discussion and let this thread get back to you and your intro.
Heber13 wrote:swimordie wrote:Heber13 wrote:What is it about nature that draws us spiritually? Any ideas?
Great question! For me, it’s the opposite of egoism, you just have the sense of humility and simpleness, a very small part of something very, very big. Also, for modern man, it feels quite primeval, like the first man emerging from the cave, creating meaning for him/herself. Mmmmm, earthy.
Sorry, wordsleuth…I didn’t mean to take away from your intro. I’ll start this discussion on a new topic under general discussion and let this thread get back to you and your intro.
No worries Heber13, I like your question. I think that we are drawn to nature because for most of our existence, we were very intimately involved in nature. It’s an evolutionary thing to me.
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