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Lately I’ve become interested in the Word of Wisdom quite a bit. I’ve read quite a few of the threads on StayLDS and am finding some of my opinions validated. I have a couple of thoughts and questions. I searched LDS.org to try and find a source of “hot drinks” meaning “tea and coffee”. I know that it’s not the easiest site to find that sort of information on but I usually give it a try first. While searching I came across this article:
https://www.lds.org/friend/1997/08/trying-to-be-like-jesus-christ?lang=eng tl;dr of the article is that a little girl is supposed to drink tea at school as part of a cultural thing but is made to feel bad by 2 teachers when she doesn’t drink it. The teachers later call her mom, mom explains they’re LDS. Apology ensues and happily ever after.
But the line that seemed wrong to me was this:
Quote:The teacher and the children kept trying to make me drink the tea, even just a sip of it, but I knew I should not drink it. Jesus Christ wouldn’t do that, so I wouldn’t do it, either.
Now, I know that this is
NOTchurch doctrine, but it ISwhat I was taught as a child. It’s only recently that the rationality of following the Word of Wisdom because it’s what Jesus would have done has lost all traction. I don’t buy apologetic “wine was different back then” arguments that my mission companions used. Or tannins or caffeine (now officially refuted by the Church) or any other argument as such. So this article stirred the pot enough in my mind I felt I had post here and ask some questions i guess. This article also hit a nerve I have regarding the brainwashing of children in Primary, but i digress.
Anyways, It’s always been strange to me that the times I felt the most at peace with the word of wisdom was when I drank in moderation, had coffee once in a while, and enjoyed tea all the time. I gave it up to serve a mission. My only reasons for keeping it at all (as taught now…..although I’ve had tea a couple times recently) are 1) It’s a TR question, and 2) My wife.
I read the TR survey topic on the WoW by Wayfarer and it intrigued me quite a bit.
I guess the struggle I’m having internally is that I’ve been conditioned to believe that in a situation like this, what I’m doing is “looking for an excuse”. How have those who have experienced this dealt with this question? I think I’ve come to the conclusion that I believe the WoW as it was taught by JS (i.e. NOT a commandment or TR requirement but a suggestion to be used according to one’s conscience). This is in line with most of my views where I accept most early church doctrine (if not all practices) but don’t necessarily believe most “revelations” or “clarifications” post-JS.
I don’t want to be “looking for an excuse”. I just remember feeling so much better when I didn’t have the WoW hanging over my head. I was never an alcoholic. My Rockstar/Monster/Mountain Dew habit has to be more unhealthy than my coffee/tea habit was.
Furthermore even if I don’t feel like tea/coffee/occasional beer would disqualify me from getting a TR, doesn’t mean my wife would agree. I guess that part comes to whether I want her or me to be the one that’s unhappy…
In all honesty my wife would probably be understanding. She’s surprised me with some unorthodox positions before. But she had an abusive alcoholic father and the WoW is something she takes seriously. I haven’t approached the topic much really. She won’t drink caffeine but she doesn’t begrudge my energy drink habit at all.
But for now I need to reconcile the “am I looking for an excuse?” problem. Thoughts?
I think you can observe your own motivations and decide what they are. “All things in moderation” is not a bad precept to live by. However, there will always be those who insist that the letter of the law should be observed. For some, this is what being Mormon is about, living a particular lifestyle that is obvious to the world. Perhaps you are comfortable living a lifestyle that is less obvious but still just as devout. I don’t believe an occasional cup of coffee automatically compromises you spiritually or physically. However, it may be something to adhere to as outward expression of your beliefs. I have a vague memory of L. Tom Perry (though I might have the wrong person) recounting a time he was at a party where a lot of drinking was going on. He wasn’t going to drink but he wanted to make sure that everyone else knew that he wasn’t drinking. A soft drink would still look like alcohol and so he ordered a glass of milk. That way everyone knew precisely what he was drinking. (I’ve tried to find a link to that talk but can’t find one so consider this story unverified). Jesus didn’t drink tea or coffee… he drank wine. SamBee wrote:Jesus didn’t drink tea or coffee… he drank wine.
A drink which is explicitly forbidden in the original as opposed to tea and coffee which required clarification.
Gerald wrote:I think you can observe your own motivations and decide what they are. “All things in moderation” is not a bad precept to live by. However, there will always be those who insist that the letter of the law should be observed. For some, this is what being Mormon is about, living a particular lifestyle that is obvious to the world. Perhaps you are comfortable living a lifestyle that is less obvious but still just as devout. I don’t believe an occasional cup of coffee automatically compromises you spiritually or physically. However, it may be something to adhere to as outward expression of your beliefs. I have a vague memory of L. Tom Perry (though I might have the wrong person) recounting a time he was at a party where a lot of drinking was going on. He wasn’t going to drink but he wanted to make sure that everyone else knew that he wasn’t drinking. A soft drink would still look like alcohol and so he ordered a glass of milk. That way everyone knew precisely what he was drinking. (I’ve tried to find a link to that talk but can’t find one so consider this story unverified).
In which case I wonder whether his motive was to be obedient to god or to
be seenbeing obedient to god. I appreciate the comment about me being able to observe my motivations. It can be complicated at times. I do believe that the motive is the difference in whether it’s wrong or not. The impetus for debating this is also that I want to largely give up soda because it’s very adversely affecting my health. The only time I’ve done that before was by drinking tea instead. I think tea is healthy. Especially green tea. So I want to swap an unhealthy drink for a healthy one but then I’m told that because I want to drink the healthy drink I shouldn’t go to the temple. And the temple is an important place to me.
Yes, I was half joking when I wrote that but it is historical fact. Tea simply wasn’t widely available where Jesus lived, wine was. Water was often dirty, and grape juice fermented. Along these lines of “WWJD?”, we can be fairly certainly Jesus wouldn’t drink mate or Mountain Dew, tequila or sake… but on the other hand he wouldn’t have eaten bananas, tomatoes, macadamia or brazil nuts or pawpaw either. Or quiche, pizza, burgers, pasta and lasagne. (At least not until visiting other sheep such as the Nephites)
SamBee wrote:Yes, I was half joking when I wrote that but it is historical fact. Tea simply wasn’t widely available where Jesus lived, wine was. Water was often dirty, and grape juice fermented.
Along these lines of “WWJD?”, we can be fairly certainly Jesus wouldn’t drink mate or Mountain Dew, tequila or sake… but on the other hand he wouldn’t have eaten bananas, tomatoes, macadamia or brazil nuts or pawpaw either. Or quiche, pizza, burgers, pasta and lasagne. (At least not until visiting other sheep such as the Nephites)
Hehe I got it.
as for WWJD… What Jesus did do was disobey half the laws the pharisees had made up.
Yes and if he did turn up in a shirt, he’d have no tie and it would be hanging out. lol Funnily enough wine IS getting stronger. I was watching a feature on Fetal Alcohol Syndrome Spectrum Disorder the other day, and they interviewed women, none of whom knew what the appropriate limit for pregnancy was. The feature then went on to point out that wine is stronger than it was twenty years ago on average. Interesting. And we’re not just talking port, brandy and sherry.
Jesus’ wine WAS weaker. Far more watery, half fermented, lower percentage etc than modern wine, but it was still wine.
Personally speaking though I keep the WoW and feel better for it in many ways. I still eat chocolate (Jesus never ate that either) and caffeinated soft drinks but steer clear of taurine.
As far as I’m concerned, if you can answer the question “Do you keep the Word of Wisdom” with a “yes” with inner peace and peace with God, then you are good. The problem comes in if your priesthood leader wants to elaborate on WoW and asks specifically about beer, coffee, or tea and you drink them. I have a temple recommend and drink green tea every day because I understand it to be a very healthy drink. I don’t hide it in my home but I don’t advertise it either. Some day I expect one of my kids will casually bring it up in church and then I’ll have a choice to make about whether to continue and risk a Bishop revoking my TR or whether to keep drinking green tea. You may call it trying to justify, but you could also call it teachings of man mingled with scripture. The scripture itself says “hot drinks.” The TR question itself says “Word of Wisdom.” The WofW has turned into more of a “obedience test” (Jesus wouldn’t do it / it’s how my leaders interpret it) than rules meant to help the weakest of the saints in my opinion.
The tea I drink is not hot and is supposedly very healthy. Small rant coming – I find it ironic that a health nut like me who drinks lukewarm tea has to worry about a TR and someone who eats a pound of chocolate cake every day doesn’t.
I’m glad the temple recommend question is worded like it is. I don’t need to get into anything more deeply than the actual question. “What would Jesus do?” is a stupid question in lots of situations. SameBee has done a great job of addressing that with regard to food and drink, but I believe Jesus also wouldn’t have voted Republican or Democrat, probably even if either option had been available to him. I have no doubt Jesus would have drunk tea if it had been available to him – unless he didn’t like the taste or smell – but I don’t know if he would have drunk coffee, for multiple reasons. I can’t stand the smell of coffee, and, my religion aside, would never have started drinking it due to how horribly I react to the smell alone.
“Strong drinks” has been ramped up significantly in the last century or so. Wine and beer both are good examples of this, as are energy drinks. In and of itself, I don’t think drinking either wine or beer in moderation is sin in any way (and mild barley drinks are allowed in the original revelation), but “conspiring men” certainly have done a number in the area of strong drinks in our modern times. There is no doubt in my mind that addiction peddling has been expanded in ways that were unimaginable to most people hundreds of years ago and more. I see the beginning verses in D&C 89 as absolutely prophetic in that regard.
My daughter who is in the MTC now drinks herbal tea regularly. She loves it and likes the health benefits. We drank wheat tea on my mission, even though I couldn’t stand the taste. (Seriously, it is disgusting to me.) Lots of temple recommend holding members, including leaders, in various countries drink whatever the popular version is of their local tea. If missionaries can drink various types of tea, based on the culture of where they serve, I don’t think your situation constitutes “looking for an excuse”.
I remember the milk at a work dinner story too, so you didn’t imagine it. But I can’t remember who… Hugh B Brown maybe? For the first time in my life I’m starting to ask some serious questions about WoW. Especially tea and moderate alcohol.
It has never been of interest to me in the past. I hate the smell of beer and coffee, but adore the smell of English tea. I see no real reason to not try it to see if the taste is as good as the smell.
If sin is actions that lead to hurting yourself or others or damaging the relationships you have with others or with God, then what impact does a mug of tea really have? I suppose if ones spouse is against it you could hurt them by drinking it…
See I’m the opposite. I love the smell of coffee! (And cigars and pipe tobacco.) Most of the tea around is not the nice English tea MacKay describes but the sweepings off the factory floor in a paper bag. I remember the nice old tea my parents would brew on special occasions which came out of a fancy tin and there’s no comparison. Since drinking redbush/rooibos for years, cheap tea tastes and smells vile to me. (I’ve had some accidentally several times)
Even before I came back to church, I had come to hate cheap coffee (Nescafe instant and worse). I could drink cheap tea but not cheap coffee. Now I find both vile, although the fancier stuff is a temptation.
Green tea’s okay but I stopped that too. Had it a couple of times accidentally in a bottled drink…
Quote:“The tea I drink is not hot and is supposedly very healthy. Small rant coming – I find it ironic that a health nut like me who drinks lukewarm tea has to worry about a TR and someone who eats a pound of chocolate cake every day doesn’t.”
Definite double standard there. The biggest threat to Mormon health is stodge – carbs and sugar. No wonder we have so many diabetics, and obese members.
Green tea is much better, but still is carcinogenic. Chamomile tea is bad for the liver in large quantities… etc
Quote:“The tea I drink is not hot and is supposedly very healthy. Small rant coming – I find it ironic that a health nut like me who drinks lukewarm tea has to worry about a TR and someone who eats a pound of chocolate cake every day doesn’t.”
Definite double standard there. The biggest threat to Mormon health is stodge – carbs and sugar. No wonder we have so many diabetics, and obese members.
Yup. Absolutely a double standard, but, like I said, lots of members drink various types of tea, so “don’t ask, don’t tell” seems like a good compromise to me for now.
I have less problem with the current enforcements than with what is not enforced – but I also don’t want weight and body mass index and sugar and carbs and general health measurements enforced. I would love it if the original wording was re-emphasized and the question left up to the individual to answer according to the dictates of personal conscience (with a wording change to “are you trying . . .”), but I understand the current focus on highly addictive substances being prohibited. There’s the ideal and the practical, and I’m both an idealist and a pragmatist. That drives some people nuts when trying to pin down exactly what I believe and put it into a nicely labeled box, but it works for me.
If you want to maintain a temple recommend and live as Mormons live you should probably live the WofW as we all know how it is expected to be lived. That is if you want to avoid feelings of conflict. To say a little coffee or wine is Ok and still go to the temple, well we all know that is not the expectation. As for me I know the WofW was just another concept Joseph pulled from the perceptions of the time. It has no divine aspects to it. I find little value in adhering to it but then I also decided to not have a recommend. So I can drink beer and not have to feel like I am making excuses. I simply reject the notion of the WofW altogether.
Quote:It has no divine aspects to it.
and that is the central point where we disagree, as had been noted at various points over time.
:thumbup: Actually it’s one of the most practical pieces of advice given by the church, debarring the hypocrisy and pharasaical interpretations. I’ve come across people negatively affected by all the stuff mentioned. I’m one of them. While I was inactive my doctor told me off for my heavy tea, coffee and alcohol consumption. I thought “where have I heard this before?” So giving up has actually cured or lessened certain health issues I had (which I won’t go into), and giving up all three has brought my depression and anxiety down to a more reasonable level. (I’ve had to make other adjustments, but it’s helped immensely) I no longer have insomnia either. I almost never get headaches now. All of them made me feel like crap. Even two cups/glasses were affecting me.
And that’s why I try and live the WoW. I’ll probably keep it if I leave the church. It’s one thing I can vouch for.
WWJD? Well, I think one thing almost all Christians and atheists can agree on is that Jesus doesn’t eat or drink anything these days.
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