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mackay11 wrote:
If sin is actions that lead to hurting yourself or others or damaging the relationships you have with others or with God, then what impact does a mug of tea really have? I suppose if ones spouse is against it you could hurt them by drinking it…
I am a Mormon and there are certain cultural norms that I accept. Many mormons consider breaches of the WOW to be a sin. I have told my wife that I will not consume these items because I feel no great desire to. I think that it is a reality that the better one conforms to social norms the more social capital one has (yes this is a sloppy shortcut for actually getting to know a person – but it is still true). Because this is seen as a measure of my integrity by LDS and non-LDS that are aware of my LDS status – I see no reason to stir the pot needlessly. I have told my wife that if I was on vacation alone in Antartica and someone offered me a chocolate latte, I would probably accept.
There are areas where I push back against social norms – I just don’t feel strongly enough about this issue to make it one of those battles.
It’s the exact opposite here. To live the WoW flies right in the face of social norms. In fact, it’s nonconformity… it makes life difficult, but I take round alternatives to friends I visit regularly. It’s less of a hassle to them than the increasing numbers of vegan people around. Old-Timer wrote:Quote:It has no divine aspects to it.
and that is the central point where we disagree, as had been noted at various points over time.
:thumbup: I did not say it was bad just not divine. Well maybe it is divine to those who attribute everything to god. In that sense antibiotics are divine because they save lives Cough syrup is divine because it helps me sleep when I am sick. It is a matter of perspective. If you are looking for a deeper meaning in things I think you can find it. I just prefer to look at things as they most likely are. Occams Razor and all of that works best for me.
So if it is divine I am interested what makes it so.
I think the wording about conspiring men in the latter days is prophetic – divine in the sense of being revelation. Other than that? I’m fine with not calling it divine.
I certainly appreciate Spock’s position on this – we all know what “they” mean when they say “Do you keep the Word of Wisdom” in you TR interview. It’s certainly a very valid position to say that if you’re going to have a TR and be a part of that club, you ought to just dow what you know they expect. Like in most things, I’ve chosen my own path. I figure that I’m a pretty smart guy – I’m just as capable of reading the 89th Section of D&C and figuring out what it means as the next guy. So when I read Section 89 and it says right from jump street that it’s not given by way of commandment, that’s how I take it. When it says mild barley drinks are healthy for man, I don’t try and parse the words — I just have a pale ale once in a while. Coffee and tea have never been big draws for me — just don’t like them too much. I try and practice moderation in all things.
If I were asked “Do you keep the WoW?” I would say “I have read Section 89 fairly frequently and I apply it in my eating and drinking choices.”
I think you’re right, but I would keep the emphasis on mild. Some beers have percentages going into double figures these days. By using modern freezing techniques, there are beers and wines which are twenty percent plus. Moderation is key. In all things. Don’t even get me started on artificial additives, pesticides, hormones etc in food.
Cadence, I agree it is perhaps manmade, but it does work for me.
Kumahito wrote:I certainly appreciate Spock’s position on this – we all know what “they” mean when they say “Do you keep the Word of Wisdom” in you TR interview. It’s certainly a very valid position to say that if you’re going to have a TR and be a part of that club, you ought to just dow what you know they expect.
Like in most things, I’ve chosen my own path. I figure that I’m a pretty smart guy – I’m just as capable of reading the 89th Section of D&C and figuring out what it means as the next guy. So when I read Section 89 and it says right from jump street that it’s not given by way of commandment, that’s how I take it. When it says mild barley drinks are healthy for man, I don’t try and parse the words — I just have a pale ale once in a while. Coffee and tea have never been big draws for me — just don’t like them too much. I try and practice moderation in all things.
If I were asked “Do you keep the WoW?” I would say “I have read Section 89 fairly frequently and I apply it in my eating and drinking choices.”
Love it!!!
As a beer enthusiast and an advid home brewer, I probably don’t need to comment in anymore WoW threads at staylds. I will only say, that I held a TR for years, as a beer drinker. I did so to hold callings…to help the BP out…and I never felt guilty about it or regrets.
However…I did not attend the temple. Out of respect. That was too much cog dis for me.
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SamBee wrote:I think you’re right, but I would keep the emphasis on mild. Some beers have percentages going into double figures these days. By using modern freezing techniques, there are beers and wines which are twenty percent plus.
Moderation is key. In all things. Don’t even get me started on artificial additives, pesticides, hormones etc in food.
Cadence, I agree it is perhaps manmade, but it does work for me.
I was behind a guy in a mini-mart buying 2 litres of rice wine that 50% proof. I guess that can’t be considered mild!
I had a green tea recently (I thought it was peppermint when I picked up the bag at the hotel). It tasted ok, but I wasn’t left feeling like I was missing out.
I love herbal infusions and hot barley drinks (caro and barleycup are popular in UK).
Thanks to everyone that replied. Although a lot of these WoW threads end up about the same I think there’s value to it. If nothing else I feel validated personally. An I’m glad I asked. Some things I’ve been pondering while reading are
1) I really don’t feel any guilt for having a TR or going to the temple. I feel like the experiences I have in the temple are from something greater than the church. For me the spirit of the temple experience feels like it belongs to something much greater, older, and wiser than the LDS church. I think there are a few things in the ceremonies that don’t feel right to me, but much like sacrament meeting you have to sift through the outer layers of church stuff to reach the inner layer of the gospel. I know it’s a complicated view. I’ve always felt spiritual impressions in religious buildings and services and each religion/building is different to me. I take these quite seriously. I know some could believe it’s in my head, but I know the impressions I get. I should probably post on this later…
2) I think the guilt that’s confusing me isn’t so much about the WoW as concern that my FC and this new journey is taking me to a place my wife might not want to go. We haven’t been married too long and we’re expecting a kid and i just don’t want to throw on her things like “I don’t believe the WoW as it’s taught now anymore” on her. Maybe in a couple years.
3)Sorting through motivations/emotions is hard.
I think for now I’m accepting that I don’t think it’s a sin to drink the drinks mentioned in the WoW. And that I feel I can answer the TR question just fine and it doesn’t affect how I feel in the temple. But doing things that I know will cause unnecessary trouble in my relationship with my wife is wrong. So maybe I’ll have one once in a while but I’m not going to drink them just for the sake of being different or start stocking up on green tea around the house. Although maybe i could try that Green Tea HP stuff that’s always advertised on the Church-owned radio station.
wuwei, I have abstained from lots of things over the years with which I have little or no problem personally specifically in order to not eat meat with those who abstain from meat, and my wife is at the top of the list of people for whom I gladly make compromises. If you haven’t read the following post I wrote almost four years ago, it deals with that exact issue:
“My Marriage as a Metaphor for My Church”( http://forum.staylds.com/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=238&hilit=my+marriage+as+a+metaphor Old-Timer wrote:wuwei, I have abstained from lots of things over the years with which I have little or no problem personally specifically in order to not eat meat with those who abstain from meat, and my wife is at the top of the list of people for whom I gladly make compromises.
If you haven’t read the following post I wrote almost four years ago, it deals with that exact issue:
“My Marriage as a Metaphor for My Church”( http://forum.staylds.com/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=238&hilit=my+marriage+as+a+metaphor Thank you for this.
I guess with this whole journey I have to be careful that going after things that
mightbring me to a higher understanding don’t take me away from my wife. Whatever else there may be out there would not be worth it if she wasn’t by my side. At this point she’s much more important to me than my own desires or the church.
For now I’ll just consider it an act of devotion to my wife. Just because I accept that I can drink certain things doesn’t mean I need to run out and do it just to do it.
When I change my motivation to her it becomes something I want to do. Which is easier for me to live with then feeling like it’s something I have to do.
wuwei wrote:Old-Timer wrote:wuwei, I have abstained from lots of things over the years with which I have little or no problem personally specifically in order to not eat meat with those who abstain from meat, and my wife is at the top of the list of people for whom I gladly make compromises.
If you haven’t read the following post I wrote almost four years ago, it deals with that exact issue:
“My Marriage as a Metaphor for My Church”( http://forum.staylds.com/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=238&hilit=my+marriage+as+a+metaphor Thank you for this.
I guess with this whole journey I have to be careful that going after things that
mightbring me to a higher understanding don’t take me away from my wife. Whatever else there may be out there would not be worth it if she wasn’t by my side. At this point she’s much more important to me than my own desires or the church.
For now I’ll just consider it an act of devotion to my wife. Just because I accept that I can drink certain things doesn’t mean I need to run out and do it just to do it.
When I change my motivation to her it becomes something I want to do. Which is easier for me to live with then feeling like it’s something I have to do.
So grateful for my husband. Out of concern for him I don’t run out and do anything just to do it. Out of concern for me he doesn’t criticize the changes I do make.
I have to say that I have really enjoyed this thread. Over the past few years, my testimony of the WoW has been shifting. It started by focusing on some of the things on the do list instead of the do not list (funny thing is I never clued into the mild drinks made of barley). As I realized how much deeper it was than just the don’t list, I realized how narrow our view is, and how little any of us follow the WoW. We will gorge ourselves on unhealthy food, avoid vegetables and eat copious amounts of meat, but judge those who occasionally (or not so occasionally) drink beer or tea. Then I started to realize how arbitrary (and skewed) so many of the rules around it are, and how these rules have evolved. Don’t drink hot drinks. Not all hot drinks. Just coffee and tea. But not all tea is bad. Just tea that comes from the tea plant. I don’t see how the official interpretation of the WoW is that far off of “the philosophies of man, mingled with scripture.”
I have recently added Yerba Maté to my collection of herbal teas. As I tend to with any hot drink, I wondered if it was legit at first. It was recommended to me for the health benefits, but my mind has been conditioned to suspect any new hot drink. As I though about it, i concluded that if the WoW is so convoluted that God considered iced tea a hot drinks, that I wasn’t going to worry about it anymore. Make sure I can pass off on the somewhat arbitrary list for the temple and focus on healthy eating and I will be fine.
It’s not like I am even looking for a reason to drink coffee, tea, alcohol etc. Which is exactly what most LDS members would expect if someone is questioning the WoW, I just see holes in it. It has been 18 years since I put that stuff behind me, and I am frankly not interested in venturing back there. But if I did start drinking mild drinks made of barley…would it matter? Probably not, unless the judgement peers weighed heavy on me.
mackay11 wrote:SamBee wrote:I think you’re right, but I would keep the emphasis on mild. Some beers have percentages going into double figures these days. By using modern freezing techniques, there are beers and wines which are twenty percent plus.
Moderation is key. In all things. Don’t even get me started on artificial additives, pesticides, hormones etc in food.
Cadence, I agree it is perhaps manmade, but it does work for me.
I was behind a guy in a mini-mart buying 2 litres of rice wine that 50% proof. I guess that can’t be considered mild!
I had a green tea recently (I thought it was peppermint when I picked up the bag at the hotel). It tasted ok, but I wasn’t left feeling like I was missing out.
I love herbal infusions and hot barley drinks (caro and barleycup are popular in UK).
That rice wine isn’t mild, it’s rocket fuel!
Never been a fan of caro. I have a tub of it sitting in my house, which hasn’t been touched for a decade.
I’d like to set up a thread discussing alternatives, rather than just the boundaries of the WoW like whoch herbal stuff people like.
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