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Someone asked me my views on grace – More then any other topic in Religion, this one has blessed my life. This will be long but if you might take several days to ponder the talks and scriptures here and consider my words you will be enlightened even if you still disagree with me. 1.) As a background there are seven talks that are a must read/listen (Not that you must read them here but if you want to know where my view derives from, these are it)
Brad Wilcox – His Grace is Suffcient
http://byutv.org/watch/49475abb-10d4-4f45-a757-7000b9945468 Stephen Robinson – “Believing christ”
Robert Milllet – “Grace after all we can do”
Robert Millet – “Why not speak of the atonement”
http://byutv.org/watch/4c198ffd-2dc7-46ac-8170-cba1c700ca21 Brad and Wendee Wilcox – “faith, an anchor to my soul”
Bruce R McConkie “what think ye of salvation by grace” http://speeches.byu….der.php?id=6910
Gerald Lund “salvation: by Grace or works”
http://www.lds.org/e…-works?lang=eng 2.) Scripture I use all the time to reference my views
2nd Nephi all of chapter 31 with special focus to verse 18-21 then going to Ch 32:6
Helaman 3:35
2nd Nephi 2:3
3rd Nephi 27:16-20
Alma 42:22-24
Alma 24:11
Mosiah 5:15
Jacob 4:7, 12
Ether 12:27
2nd Nephi 25: 23-26, 29-30
Alma 24:11 (goes with 2nd Nephi 25:23)
Moroni 10:32-33
D&C 19:11-18
followed up by D&C 88:21
Alma 5:12-15, 26, 28 through the end
D&C 20:30-34
D&C 137:9
Abraham 3:25
Galatians 3:24
Galatians 2:20-21
2nd Corinthians 12:7-10
Romans 14:1-8
Romans 11:27-32
Romans 10:9-13,
Romans 10:3
Romans 8:6-14
Romans 8:1-4
Romans 6:14-19
Romans 5:1-9 &17-19
Romans 4:3-5, 16, 24-25
Romans 3:7-12, 20 -end of chapter
Romans 2:11-15
3.) – Most Latter Day Saints use either 2nd Nephi 25:23 or the Bible Dictionary to share their understanding that grace comes in after and only after we do all we can do and expend our own best efforts. Nobody ever does their best for a whole day nevermind a lifetime. We fall short. Because many think they have to do their best they become depressed, discouraged, and give up. This understanding of 2nd Nephi 25:23 is incorrect. the after has many meanings. It can also be translated as notwithstanding or nevertheless. In other words “inspite of all I do, it is Grace by which I am saved”. The bible Dictionary simply furthers the wrong interpretation. The LDS bible dictionary is not doctrine and is not binding as it says so itself in it’s introduction.
4.) Ether 12:27 – God gave us our weakness or made us a natural Man that makes mistakes and is fallen and has flaws. Why did he do that? So we would be humble. Why? So we would turn to his Son. Why? Because his Son makes Weakness Strengths – 2nd Cor 12:9-10. Stop beating yourself up, Paul didn’t.
5.) Many in the church want to have value placed on works. They will say things that tend to say “My good works have merit in my salvation”
but these scriptures and quotes say otherwise
Helaman 14:13, Alma 24:10, Moroni 6:4, D&C 3:20, 2nd Nephi 31:19 there are many more… a whole slew of them
Now this doesn’t mean “one only need believe, and then thou art saved” like some evangelicals proclaim.
Rather we must get in our heads Keeping commandments, accepting ordinances, doing good works are all required and necessary. But they are in place to push us to grow, progress, and through Christ’s grace receive the mighty change from Alma 5
6.) We place value on outside behavior but god looketh on the heart as the bible says and also Helaman 3:35 says it is our yielding our heart to God that brings sanctification… aka: the mighty change.
7.) To live with God again we must be justified. To do so can be done three ways.
A.) To keep the law perfectly – Only Jesus did, so sorry your out of luck here
B.) To live the gospel always pressing forward with steadfastness and repenting when you don’t: repentance means change
C.) D&C 19:15-18 to suffer for your own sins
8.)This will justify you (make you clean from your sins) but in order to live with God you must be sanctified as well (spiritually changed to be Christlike)<--- this doesn't happen instantaneouly for most, it is a journey... one day at a time. D&C 88:21 only the sanctified will be Celestial. Sanctification comes from yoking with Christ and using his Grace or enabling power to change (Ether 12:27). This change will happen in the eternities for many who would have done so here if the opportunity presented itself. Perfection is an eternal Goal, will not be achieved in this life. 9.)So how do we access this. Grace comes in as soon as we exercise faith and grace added to Grace as we live more and more of the gospel in our heart. Moroni 10:32 – 33 – you must see this scripture as a process and you must not think that you have to reach a certain level of righteousness at any one point in this life. Notice how we become perfected in Christ then later we become perfect in Christ. 10.) To be perfected in Christ is to yoke with him in the baptismal covenant and live that covenant. When we do so we have a relationship with Christ. We borrow his perfection as we keep this covenant. His grace is at work in our life perfecting us. 11.) What is the covenant – Mosiah 18 – be “willing” to mourn with those that mourn, comfort those in need of comfort, stand as a witness of him, remember him always (sacrament), and repent when you mess up. Look at the bread prayer and Water Prayer of the sacrament – Only the bread asks us to keep the commandments but it also says “willing”. The Water prayer says neither. If you had to “keep the commandments” to have his spirit – you would break the covenant within minutes of making it and he would be bound to remove the spirit from you all the time. But if your promise is to be willing to keep the commandments then you can do it. It measures your desires, and attitude, and motives. You still must repent when behavior is sin but that too demonstrates your heart and willingness to be humble and to follow him. There is so much more to this but this is a good outline of my feelings on the subject. I will conclude with this. The church on LDS.ORG has this definiton of Grace which is newer and I feel 100% on
http://www.lds.org/ldsorg/v/index.jsp?locale=0&sourceId=679f2f2324d98010VgnVCM1000004d82620a____&vgnextoid=bbd508f54922d010VgnVCM1000004d82620aRCRD Quote:Grace
Grace is the help or strength given through the Atonement of the Lord Jesus Christ. Through the grace of God, everyone who has lived will be resurrected—our spirits will be reunited with our bodies, never again to be separated. Through His grace, the Lord also enables those who live His gospel to repent and be forgiven.
Grace is a gift from Heavenly Father given through His Son, Jesus Christ. The word grace, as used in the scriptures, refers primarily to enabling power and spiritual healing offered through the mercy and love of Jesus Christ.
Everyone on earth experiences physical death. Through the grace of Jesus Christ, all will be resurrected and will live forever (see 1 Corinthians 15:20–22; 2 Nephi 9:6–13).
Because of personal choices, everyone also experiences the effects of sin (see 1 John 1:8–10; Mosiah 16:4). These effects are called spiritual death. No one can return to the presence of God without divine grace. Through the Atonement, we all can be forgiven of our sins; we can become clean before God. To receive this enabling power, we must obey the gospel of Jesus Christ, which includes having faith in Him, repenting of our sins, being baptized, receiving the gift of the Holy Ghost, and
tryingto follow the teachings of Jesus Christ for the rest of our lives (see Ephesians 2:8–9; James 2:17–22; 2 Nephi 25:23; 31:20). The grace of God helps us every day. It strengthens us to do good works we could not do on our own. The Lord promised that if we humble ourselves before Him and have faith in Him, His grace will help us overcome all our personal weaknesses (see Ether 12:27).
Notice the word Trying (I bolded, italicized, and underlined). Compare this definition with the LDS Bible Dictionary. See the difference?
Have an Awesome Day
DBMORMON
DB, the following is a link to my own post about grace: “Embracing Grace” (
http://thingsofmysoul.blogspot.com/2007/11/embracing-grace.html DB-You got in trouble for this? It’s the gospel truth about grace… Leader was a “Saved by grace after all we can do” and expend our own best efforts….. What Can I say
Quote:When I read 2 Nephi 25:23, I explain it by employing a common linguistic technique – switching the phrases to reflect the proper emphasis. In this case, the sentence becomes, “(Even) after all we can do, it is (still) by grace that we are saved.” Of course, we are to try to do all that we can do, but exactly what we can do pales in comparison to what He has done – saved us by His grace regardless of what we can do. It takes the pressure off of us and puts the focus where it should be – on His incomprehensible grace that so fully he proffers us.
I like it Ray
Great thoughts. I like understanding grace and works. Both have a place in my life. I don’t think I earn His grace, He first loves me, and then forgives me and then continues to love me even when I err. I sometimes struggle to,see if grace impacts me daily. But I think knowing the concept and doctrine of grace is an uplifting and positive thought that buoys me up and can help.
DBMormon wrote:Leader was a “Saved by grace after all we can do” and expend our own best efforts…..
What Can I say
We tend to be hard-capped by our own genes and body and soft capped by our own mind. Our best efforts can improve but only to a point when we run smack into the limitations of our individual minds and bodies and resources. No one knows there best efforts everyday unless they run smack into those 2 things and I perish the thought of what happens to those who try(I have seen it). Burning the wick at both ends is a reduce for disaster in the medium to long run. It runs smack into the philosophy of “if I hadn’t burned the wick at both ends and broke my mind and body to achieve the to-do list, would I have been able to finish what I started through the mercy and grace of god”. Was I really condemned by god for my own weaknesses or was that just me? I believe by the holy spirit now that the grace and love from god and Chris is suffient to accomplish what needs to be done without burning the wick at both ends. That we may through his grave live full meaningful gospel centered lives without having to substantially reduce our own “best efforts” through burning the wick at both ends. Instead I find the grace is fulfilling (US ENGLISH
…making someone satisfied or happy because of fully developing their character or abilities…) I find this definition very helpful. That we would become such not by being close to perfect as we can be, but by developing our personal character and abilities fully(what ever they are)through his grace. In that light his grace takes on a profound simplicity and beautiful loving work that be be accomplished by all those believe in his name. We can realize despite our imperfections our own talents and abilities fully through his grace through the weight of our imperfection being lifted by those that believe in it. DBMormon, Thanks for all of this. The more I understand Grace the less anxious I get about church.
DBMormon wrote:
Now this doesn’t mean “one only need believe, and then thou art saved” like some evangelicals proclaim.
The evangelicals I’ve talked to about this emphasize faith leading to salvation, but feel that being saved leads to good works. Works are a byproduct of salvation. Too often in church I hear about those “other churches” that teach that you only have to say that you believe and then do anything you want. I haven’t met anyone who actually believes this. I think this is a straw man we set up in our Sunday School classes to make us feel better about all the important work we have to do as Mormons. Some people emphasize grace at the expense of works, and we tend to emphasize works at the expense of grace. Neither extreme is correct. We need to spend time talking about both.
I also like 1 Cor. 15:9-10
Quote:9 For I am the least of the apostles, that am not meet to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God.
10 But by the grace of God I am what I am: and his grace which was bestowed upon me was not in vain; but I laboured more abundantly than they all: yet not I, but the grace of God which was with me.
Paul recognizes that he did some wicked things and gives credit to God’s grace for his apostolic calling and for all his good works.
turinturambar wrote:DB-You got in trouble for
this? It’s the gospel truth about grace… Quite the fireworks show on MAD this week.
Damn I’m glad I got banned from there. What a waste of spiritual energy.
Actually, Bill, your days are numbered over there too. You just don’t know it yet.
Oh yeah. Nice thread and references.
Sent from my SCH-I500 using Tapatalk 2
Earl Parsons wrote:DBMormon,
Thanks for all of this. The more I understand Grace the less anxious I get about church.
DBMormon wrote:
Now this doesn’t mean “one only need believe, and then thou art saved” like some evangelicals proclaim.
The evangelicals I’ve talked to about this emphasize faith leading to salvation, but feel that being saved leads to good works. Works are a byproduct of salvation. Too often in church I hear about those “other churches” that teach that you only have to say that you believe and then do anything you want. I haven’t met anyone who actually believes this. I think this is a straw man we set up in our Sunday School classes to make us feel better about all the important work we have to do as Mormons. Some people emphasize grace at the expense of works, and we tend to emphasize works at the expense of grace. Neither extreme is correct. We need to spend time talking about both.
I also like 1 Cor. 15:9-10
Quote:9 For I am the least of the apostles, that am not meet to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God.
10 But by the grace of God I am what I am: and his grace which was bestowed upon me was not in vain; but I laboured more abundantly than they all: yet not I, but the grace of God which was with me.
Paul recognizes that he did some wicked things and gives credit to God’s grace for his apostolic calling and for all his good works.
I like that. Outside of moroni, Cor. Is my favorite book. I have found many mysterious “theys”(ore churches) within the manual teachings. I’m sure it’s done to help promote what we do. I found the same growing up with the “we are the only ones that know what temples are for”. Imagine when I asked my hasidic Jewish friend why they had forgotten what they did in the temples. He was perplexed and didn’t know what I ment. He described the temple and who was in it and what it was for and shared all the ordinances with me. They are clearly different ordinances, perhaps that is why we say “we are the only ones who knows what temples are for” in the teaching manual.I think we do needed to teach both works and grace so we don’t put all our eggs I either works or grace.
cwald wrote:turinturambar wrote:DB-You got in trouble for
this? It’s the gospel truth about grace… Quite the fireworks show on MAD this week.
Damn I’m glad I got banned from there. What a waste of spiritual energy.
Actually, Bill, your days are numbered over there too. You just don’t know it yet.
Oh yeah. Nice thread and references.
eRayR and zerinus are not nice people and need to be banned. selek was banned along with cwald — was that for right/left balance? There are some there that i find to be very helpful and quite astute: Robert F Smith, mfbutkowski, volgadon (the jewish angle), Kevin Christiansen…I suppose I ought to comment on the OP…you’re on the right track DB. it’s all grace and all works, but grace comes in first, in the middle, and at the end.
cwald wrote:turinturambar wrote:DB-You got in trouble for
this? It’s the gospel truth about grace… Quite the fireworks show on MAD this week.
Damn I’m glad I got banned from there. What a waste of spiritual energy.
Actually, Bill, your days are numbered over there too. You just don’t know it yet.
Oh yeah. Nice thread and references.
Sent from my SCH-I500 using Tapatalk 2
It ended good though, several came in and agreed with what I was saying and eventually those who were rude apoligized.
Quote:Grace
Grace is the help or strength given through the Atonement of the Lord Jesus Christ. Through the grace of God, everyone who has lived will be resurrected—our spirits will be reunited with our bodies, never again to be separated. Through His grace, the Lord also enables those who live His gospel to repent and be forgiven.
Grace is a gift from Heavenly Father given through His Son, Jesus Christ. The word grace, as used in the scriptures, refers primarily to enabling power and spiritual healing offered through the mercy and love of Jesus Christ.
Everyone on earth experiences physical death. Through the grace of Jesus Christ, all will be resurrected and will live forever (see 1 Corinthians 15:20–22; 2 Nephi 9:6–13).
Because of personal choices, everyone also experiences the effects of sin (see 1 John 1:8–10; Mosiah 16:4). These effects are called spiritual death. No one can return to the presence of God without divine grace. Through the Atonement, we all can be forgiven of our sins; we can become clean before God. To receive this enabling power, we must obey the gospel of Jesus Christ, which includes having faith in Him, repenting of our sins, being baptized, receiving the gift of the Holy Ghost, and trying to follow the teachings of Jesus Christ for the rest of our lives (see Ephesians 2:8–9; James 2:17–22; 2 Nephi 25:23; 31:20).
The grace of God helps us every day.
It strengthens us to do good works we could not do on our own.The Lord promised that if we humble ourselves before Him and have faith in Him, His grace will help us overcome all our personal weaknesses (see Ether 12:27). Another cool thing I just saw today – Notice how the good works we do are not ours anyway, that it is grace that allows us to do them. We can take no credit nor provide any merits for it.
DBMormon wrote:cwald wrote:turinturambar wrote:DB-You got in trouble for
this? It’s the gospel truth about grace… Quite the fireworks show on MAD this week.
Damn I’m glad I got banned from there. What a waste of spiritual energy.
Actually, Bill, your days are numbered over there too. You just don’t know it yet.
Oh yeah. Nice thread and references.
Sent from my SCH-I500 using Tapatalk 2
It ended good though, several came in and agreed with what I was saying and eventually those who were rude apoligized.
That is good. I quit following the threads. Made me sick. To think that faithful TEMPLE RECOMMEND holding members would say and act like that. Hah. And I am the “apostate” guy who is “unworthy to go to the temple and who is trying to tear down the church and who is doomed to spend eternity in the terrestrial kingdom.”
😯 cwald wrote:That is good. I quit following the threads. Made me sick. To think that faithful TEMPLE RECOMMEND holding members would say and act like that. Hah. And I am the “apostate” guy who is “unworthy to go to the temple and who is trying to tear down the church and who is doomed to spend eternity in the terrestrial kingdom.”
😯 i know frustrating but you have to always remind yourself that it is only about 5 or so guys and they just post a lot
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