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the key difference in my view versus many members is I felt that while works are required and are necassary they have no merit toward salvation. Why does a Piano teacher require Practice?
Why do teachers require homework?
Why does the Lord give Commandments?
1.) if someone is less then 100% effort on these do we tell them they failed… nope but the harder they work at achieving a perfect effort the better they become, the faster they improve. The more they become like the teacher.
2.) Without a standard to push towards we would do very little to push ourselves. Think about if there was not commandments, or homework, or practice. We would never become like Pianists, or well educated, or like Christ.
3.) becasue of 1 and 2 they are required and necessary though the scriptures tell us over and over they have no merits and that we are saved by relying wholly upon the merits of Christ.
Even Bruce R. McConkie who of all people should have disagreed with me said
“Salvation is not in works–not even in those revealed of God–but in Christ and his atonement.”
DBMormon wrote:the key difference in my view versus many members is I fell that while works are required and are necassary they have no merit toward salvation.
Why does a Piano teacher require Practice?
Why do teachers require homework?
Why does the Lord give Commandments?
1.) if someone is less then 100% effort on these do we tell them they failed… nope but the harder they work at achieving a perfect effort the better they become, the faster they improve. The more they become like the teacher.
2.) Without a standard to push towards we would do very little to push ourselves. Think about if there was not commandments, or homework, or practice. We would never become like Pianists, or well educated, or like Christ.
3.) becasue of 1 and 2 they are required and necessary though the scriptures tell us over and over they have no merits and that we are saved by relying wholly upon the merits of Christ.
Even Bruce R. McConkie who of all people should have disagreed with me said
“Salvation is not in works–not even in those revealed of God–but in Christ and his atonement.”
I can very much understand that view. That’s pretty much what I recieved through prayer ever since I was a deacon. Works are important but there not the point. I feel as children of god we naturally crave progression. When we don’t, we tend to get unhappy on the whole. There is tremdous value in spiritual goals but not in a check list.
DBMormon wrote:Even Bruce R. McConkie who of all people should have disagreed with me said
“Salvation is not in works–not even in those revealed of God–but in Christ and his atonement.”
I wonder if BRM would have continued with that statement and elaborated on what Exaltation was.
I do not believe my works will impact my resurrection.
But the church does teach that works will impact the degree of exaltation one achieves. Would you agree with that?
To me, that is why some mormons are so motivated to be valiant. To tolerate less than perfect, to tolerate sin, is putting their highest degree of the CK in jeaporday (which may mean not being able to have sex for eternity????
😯 ).Works may be our homework…but it is more than just practicing piano to learn skills. There is also a judgement day.
The question is: Do you think at the judgement day, my works are a factor for exaltation as much as grace?
Heber13 wrote:
I do not believe my works will impact my resurrection.But the church does teach that works will impact the degree of exaltation one achieves. Would you agree with that?
no, though Works will naturally demonstrate one’s desires, heart, and spiritual progress. i believe God will decide who makes the Celestial kingdom, not by works, but rather by those whose hearts have changed, who have been sanctified by Grace, whose progress is forward and towards Christ. D&C 88:21 It is the inner heart that makes us Celestial and anyone with that will naturally be doing something outwardly that shows this inner change, “Faith without Works is Dead” AKA I will show you my faith by my works. But works do not save us it is what is inside that they demonstrate.Quote:To me, that is why some mormons are so motivated to be valiant. To tolerate less than perfect, to tolerate sin, is putting their highest degree of the CK in jeaporday (which may mean not being able to have sex for eternity????
😯 ).Works may be our homework…but it is more than just practicing piano to learn skills. There is also a judgement day.
I may have done the same good works item for item with the guy next to me, but i promised we both shall be judged separately based on the spiritual progress we made not the outward behavior
Stephen Robinson taught it best through this story
Quote:Many years ago I came into contact with a woman who was, initially at least, one of the roughest persons I have ever known. Abused as a child, she had run away from home and had lived on the streets for years. As a young woman, she traveled around the country with a motorcycle gang. In late middle age, her beauty gone, she spent most of her time in a pub, where some missionaries met her when they went in to get change for a pay phone outside. When she was baptized, many of the members worried that her conversion wouldn’t last, and there were good reasons to suspect it might not.
For a long time after her baptism, this sister still swore like a trooper, even in Church, and never quite lived the Word of Wisdom one hundred percent. On one occasion during her first year in the Church, she lost her temper during a Relief Society meeting and punched out one of the other sisters. Her ex-husband is an alcoholic, and her children have all spent time in jail. Now the question before us is whether someone like this can seriously expect to be saved. What hope does a person like this, with all her faults and weaknesses, really have? With her background and problems, why bother coming to Church at all?
“Though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool.” God does not lie. Whoever will come, may come. All are invited, none is excluded. Though this sister had further to travel than most, the same covenant was offered to her: “Do all you can. I will do the rest while you learn how.” And she was as faithful as she could be under her circumstances. She never said, “No, I won’t,” or “Get off my back,” or “Why talk to me? Talk to him, he started it.” She always said, “I know; I’m sorry. I’ll try to do better.” Then she would try to do better. Often she would fail, but little by little over the years, she improved a great deal. First she gave up coffee, tea, and alcohol. Then she stopped swearing. Later she overcame smoking and got her temper somewhat under control. Finally, after she’d been in the Church many years, she was ready to go to the temple. Can such a person really expect to inherit the kingdom of God? Of course.
But now the harder question. At what point did this sister become a candidate for the kingdom? Was it when she finally gave up her cigarettes, or when she got her language and temper under control? Or was it when she finally qualified for a temple recommend? No. It was none of these, though they were all important landmarks in her progress. She was justified through her faith in Jesus Christ on the day that she repented of her sins, was baptized, and received the gift of the Holy Ghost, for she entered into that covenant in good faith and in all sincerity. She believed in Christ, and she believed Christ. Like the widow with her mite, she gave all she had and held nothing back. It may not have been much, but it was everything.
If we go by works she was not Celestial till the end. If we go by heart and inner spiritual change and progress, she was Celestial all along
Quote:The question is: Do you think at the judgement day, my works are a factor for exaltation as much as grace?
I think at judgement God will use our works to demonstrate to us whether we were heading towards him in this life pressing forward with steadfastness, whether we were happy where we were, or whether we were rebeling and heading away from him. Without our works, we will have no way to personally gauge our own hearts. “God’s” judgement will rest on whether we became perfected in Christ and whether we had the mighty change and the countenance of Christ upon us.
also Grace can’t do all the work. Grace can only assist those who exercise faith and have a desire to move forward towards Christ and his standard. Grace only assist our good intentions. We must be willing, have a broken heart and contritte spirit, and press forward. DBMormon wrote:also Grace can’t do all the work. Grace can only assist those who exercise faith and have a desire to move forward towards Christ and his standard. Grace only assist our good intentions. We must be willing, have a broken heart and contrite spirit, and press forward.
One day I ran head long into the dichotomy of Grace vs. Tiered Salvation. It didn’t make sense to me! If grace fills the gap then how do some people receive grace but not enough for exaltation?
Some good friends here gave me an interface concept. If grace covers our mistakes as long as we keep our faces towards the source of the light AND grace forestalls our personal final judgment until we have either reached our full potential or stopped progressing by our own fully informed choice to turn away from the source of light and quit trying THEN grace and tiered salvation/eternal progression can occupy the same space in my head.
I really like this and the sources that you referenced, DBMormon. Do you recognize that this is not the mainstream understanding of the church membership? Of all the talks you linked to (which I loved) I don’t see much from recent top leadership (Q15) except BRM (and he is both dated and kinda suspect as far as OFFICIAL Mormon doctrine). Even in the somewhat landmark talk about Justice vs. Mercy – The indebted man is now indebted to Christ as mediator and now PAYS Christ under new and more relaxed terms.
It is sometimes interesting to see how some who espouse these views of LDS grace tackle the issue of this not being well understood or even completely discounted by many. If a lack of understanding about grace and the atonement where a key deficiency in the church, one might expect a host of GC talks about this issue – yet the GC emphasis appears to continue to be on following the commandments (though this has softened some over time.)
Stephen Robinson said that his BYU students were “soft in the middle,” that they had spent so much of their youth learning and memorizing the appendages to the Gospel that they missed the actual gospel. I found it a bit naive that Bro. Robinson wouldn’t or couldn’t wonder how much of the fault of this “missing the core of the gospel” in the lives of his BIC, seminary graduate, return missionary, BYU student body was a systemic problem of the church itself.
You have mentioned the things in the Bible Dictionary that you disagree with. I also found that the institute manual interpretation of many of the key verses that you and Bro. Robinson point to is NOT the same interpretation that you both seem to have.
How much can my personal religious views and interpretations differ from what is taught in the material provided by my church and me still be a Mormon?
If the Atonement/Expiation is the single most important event in the Christian world, how much can we downplay it, minimize it, and dismiss it in our collective mental doctrine until we cease to be Christians?
Is it any wonder that we are accused of promoting “another Gospel?”
I love your perspective and I see evidence for it throughout the scriptures. Do you see these as fringe beliefs or as central understandings of the gospel? If you see them as central, then how do you reconcile that this is seen as fringe/tangential belief by many in the church?
Although my questions are fairly direct, I have the utmost respect for you and intend no disrespect. Thank you in advance for your thoughts!
Quote:If grace covers our mistakes as long as we keep our faces towards the source of the light AND grace forestalls our personal final judgment until we have either reached our full potential or stopped progressing by our own fully informed choice to turn away from the source of light and quit trying THEN grace and tiered salvation/eternal progression can occupy the same space in my head.
That essentially is how I see it. I think God is much, much, much more patient than we tend to believe – and that we have much, much, much longer to get to “the end” than we tend to believe.
Quote:One day I ran head long into the dichotomy of Grace vs. Tiered Salvation. It didn’t make sense to me! If grace fills the gap then how do some people receive grace but not enough for exaltation?
Some good friends here gave me an interface concept. If grace covers our mistakes as long as we keep our faces towards the source of the light AND grace forestalls our personal final judgment until we have either reached our full potential or stopped progressing by our own fully informed choice to turn away from the source of light and quit trying THEN grace and tiered salvation/eternal progression can occupy the same space in my head.
This is the only way I can see it now. The church also has softened up on this issue. Check out
http://www.lds.org/new-era/2012/08/his-grace-is-sufficient?lang=eng http://www.lds.org/ldsorg/v/index.jsp?locale=0&sourceId=679f2f2324d98010VgnVCM1000004d82620a____&vgnextoid=bbd508f54922d010VgnVCM1000004d82620aRCRD Quote:I really like this and the sources that you referenced, DBMormon. Do you recognize that this is not the mainstream understanding of the church membership? Of all the talks you linked to (which I loved) I don’t see much from recent top leadership (Q15) except BRM (and he is both dated and kinda suspect as far as OFFICIAL Mormon doctrine). Even in the somewhat landmark talk about Justice vs. Mercy – The indebted man is now indebted to Christ as mediator and now PAYS Christ under new and more relaxed terms.
I think my view is as mainstream as any other person’s view. I think the church, and rightly so I might add, pushes us to do our best, to keep trying, to give our all. That is the church’s job. I actually have trouble finding the bible dictionary/2nd nephi 25:23 (misundestanding) taught anywhere in the church hierarchy anymore. It wrongly gets taught at the Ward level, where most misunderstandings occur, but I can’t find it in General Conference or Church Magazines anymore. The church manuals are being re-written as we speak, and I expect in a year or two when they come out that much of this is corrected.
Quote:It is sometimes interesting to see how some who espouse these views of LDS grace tackle the issue of this not being well understood or even completely discounted by many. If a lack of understanding about grace and the atonement where a key deficiency in the church, one might expect a host of GC talks about this issue – yet the GC emphasis appears to continue to be on following the commandments (though this has softened some over time.)
In a roundabout way it is still about keeping the commandments. I have trouble wording some of this unless I am talking to someone and using scriptures to show it. Christ told us to keep commandments, The Church tells us to keep commandments, we are to be told. The difference is in the why. We have to be given a perfect standard otherwise we have no goal to work for, nothing pushing us to be better to improve and to become more Christlike. How would we know there is spiritual progress if there are no goals we have to work towards? I need the church to set a high bar, even though in reality Christ pays the whole debt. Even Brother Robinson was wrong when he suggested that Christ paid it all save a few coins. Not true, Christ did it, it is finished, he paid the whole debt.
Quote:Stephen Robinson said that his BYU students were “soft in the middle,” that they had spent so much of their youth learning and memorizing the appendages to the Gospel that they missed the actual gospel. I found it a bit naive that Bro. Robinson wouldn’t or couldn’t wonder how much of the fault of this “missing the core of the gospel” in the lives of his BIC, seminary graduate, return missionary, BYU student body was a systemic problem of the church itself.
I only came to this understanding reading every single scripture on
GRACE, MERCY, JUSTIFICATION, SANCTIFICATION, ALMA CH:5 AND THE MIGHTY CHANGE, REPENTANCE, DOCTRINE OF CHRIST, BAPTISMAL COVENANT, PERFECTED IN CHRIST, ECT… and then reading every single talk I could find on the subject.
As I did so the spirit (very strongly) helped me sort out truth from error. Now this discovery and proclamation of what is truth is for me, each has to find truth on their own. I have no right to tell you what is truth. But I can never see grace the old way after having spiritually made this discovery.
Quote:You have mentioned the things in the Bible Dictionary that you disagree with. I also found that the institute manual interpretation of many of the key verses that you and Bro. Robinson point to is NOT the same interpretation that you both seem to have.
How much can my personal religious views and interpretations differ from what is taught in the material provided by my church and me still be a Mormon?
While some church folks are adament that the church not be contradicted on anything, I don’t see the church claiming a monopoly on truth. ex:
Quote:D&C 49 8 Wherefore, I will that all men shall repent, for all are under sin, except those which I have reserved unto myself, holy men that ye know not of.
The church was to proclaim repentance but not all people had to join the church as God had Holy men unto himself that the church didn’t even know about nor had authority to reach. In other Words the church, while the true church with God’s authority was not the only instituion God was working with men to provide salvation – listen to part three of the Teryl givens Interview –
http://mormonstories.org/terryl-givens-an-approach-to-thoughtful-honest-and-faithful-mormonism/ Also article of faith #9 9 We believe all that God has revealed, all that He does now reveal, and we believe that He will yet reveal many great and important things pertaining to the Kingdom of God.
This all by itself implies the church still has things to learn. Now we are not called to preach against the church, that is apostacy, but we certainly have a right to hold onto truth even if it differs from what the church currently accepts
ex: prior to 78′ one could hold a belief to himself that the priesthood being withheld from African lineage was wrong. That would have differed from the church’s stance/policy but who was right. God will fix things in his own time as he sees fit. this is still a young church. Please do not think for a second that in the first century of Christianity that it had everything all ironed out…. far from it.
Quote:If the Atonement/Expiation is the single most important event in the Christian world, how much can we downplay it, minimize it, and dismiss it in our collective mental doctrine until we cease to be Christians?
Is it any wonder that we are accused of promoting “another Gospel?”
The church is called to tell us to keep the commandments, we just need to do a better job understanding the why. Many in the church including leaders do, and the general membership will catch on.
Quote:I love your perspective and I see evidence for it throughout the scriptures. Do you see these as fringe beliefs or as central understandings of the gospel? If you see them as central, then how do you reconcile that this is seen as fringe/tangential belief by many in the church?
Most members do not study the gospel outside of church, most are not out of Black and white thinking, most see in relation to other faiths a me versus them and cling to wrong beliefs that separate us from the other guys. You imply that by having a skewed view of Grace the church could be off base. Early Christianity had both believers who believed 3 in 1 and others who believed 3 separate personages – does that mean the church was off base and not able to have authority over ordinances? no. views can be skewed and left for further light and knowledge and the church still be true.
Quote:Although my questions are fairly direct, I have the utmost respect for you and intend no disrespect. Thank you in advance for your thoughts!
Your welcome, I glad you have undertaken to study the list. Brad Wilcox’s talk “His grace is sufficient” got the ball rolling for me.
I wrote a long paper on the whole subject if your interested. PM your email and I will send it. That goes for anyone else who is interested as well.
DBMormon wrote:Most Latter Day Saints use either 2nd Nephi 25:23 or the Bible Dictionary to share their understanding that grace comes in after and only after we do all we can do and expend our own best efforts. Nobody ever does their best for a whole day nevermind a lifetime. We fall short.
Because many think they have to do their best they become depressed, discouraged, and give up.This understanding of 2nd Nephi 25:23 is incorrect…Stop beating yourself up, Paul didn’t…We place value on outside behavior but god looketh on the heart…it is our yielding our heart to God that brings sanctification… aka: the mighty change…it is a journey… one day at a time. This could be the single biggest issue I have had with the Church over the years and I think it’s the main thing that led me to become completely inactive after my mission even though I still believed in the Church more than ever at that point. Basically I never felt like I was good enough and I started to feel very discouraged as if I wouldn’t be able to make it to the Celestial Kingdom anyway so then it seemed almost pointless to even try anymore. The problem is that for all the scriptures and Church teachings that support the idea that God is merciful and forgiving there are also plenty to support the idea that very few people will actually be saved, that we need to be willing to sacrifice everything, and that even temple worthiness and being fully active in the Church is not nearly good enough to really earn exaltation (D&C 58:26-29). So where do we draw the line as far as finding the perfect balance of necessary and sufficient works versus what God is supposedly willing to forgive?
Some of my thoughts about these ideas are in the following threads:
http://forum.staylds.com/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=2921 http://forum.staylds.com/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=2043 Basically the Church was almost the exact opposite of cognitive therapy for me in many cases because of the constant guilt-trips about how I should supposedly be different and better than I ever felt like I was based on what I heard at Church. Even on my mission when I was more obedient to the Church’s expectations than at any other time in my life I actually felt worse than ever in many cases mostly because I was thinking about these ideas all day. I know there are many active members that don’t experience this as much if at all and that probably mostly find comfort in the idea that they are well on their way to the Celestial Kingdom where they will be with their family forever but the more attention I paid to what the scriptures and LDS prophets and apostles actually said the more I was convinced that even the majority of active members would not be saved. Obviously some people are more susceptible to this kind of perfectionism and pessimism than others and it isn’t necessarily unique to the LDS Church but I think it’s something Church leaders should pay more attention to with some of the unhealthy ideas that often spread through the Church and the suffering it causes.
The Church’s job is to push us, to set a high bar of perfection. Christ himself asked us to keep commandments. The issue is we have to get way better at the why of commandments rather then the being told to keep them. I too felt discouraged, depressed, and ready to give up until I had this revelation with the help of the scriptures and talks.
I see the scriptures that say
Quote:very few people will actually be saved
I think of all of God’s children, how many are willing or have a desire to serve god and are rather moving backwrds in rebellion or are happy standing still. This will not be saved in my understanding. Only those moving forward being sanctified by Grace.
I agree in theory, DBM – but I don’t profess to know who is moving forward, standing still or moving backward, especially in light of my belief in the power of the 2nd Article of Faith and the length of time inherent in the idea of “eternal” progression. Also, I don’t see the Church’s role as pushing us. I see it much more as teaching principles and letting us decide when we can move and how quickly we can do so.
Franky, I think many people who seem to be stagnating or even regressing probably are doing more than I am as I think I’m progressing. I have no freaking clue what each person’s potential is in mortality, so I try really, really hard not to judge their “progress” in any measurable way – especially since I know people who appear to be progressing based on what most people can see but who, in fact, are bigger bastards now than they used to be.
yeah, Ray I think I Am progressing but man is it slow.
Old-Timer wrote:I know people who appear to be progressing based on what most people can see but who, in fact, are bigger bastards now than they used to be.
Hey now, Hey Now! That’s no reason to question someone’s parentage.
outward righteous behavior is not a clear cut indicator of inner change and progression, I’ll give you that. lol Yeah, the only way to become a bigger bastard than previously is to gain height and/or weight – and that’s not what I meant. 😆
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