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DBMormon wrote:
The Church’s job is to push us, to set a high bar of perfection.Christ himself asked us to keep commandments. The issue is we have to get way better at the why of commandments rather then the being told to keep them…I too felt discouraged, depressed, and ready to give up until I had this revelation with the help of the scriptures and talks…I see the scriptures that say Quote:very few people will actually be saved
I think of all of God’s children,
how many are willing or have a desire to serve god and are rather moving backwrds in rebellion or are happy standing still. This will not be savedin my understanding. Only those moving forward being sanctified by Grace. I’m not suggesting that anything goes and there should be no rules and no expected standards of behavior whatsoever or that every little league team automatically deserves a trophy. There is definitely such a thing as too much tolerance and entitlement. However, I disagree with the idea that the Church has been completely right to push people so much and set a high bar of “perfection” to the extent it has so far. To me grace is about letting God judge what should be forgiven or not and what blessings people will receive in this life or the next rather than approaching these desired outcomes with the attitude that we already know for sure exactly what it takes to earn it. That’s why I think some Church leaders have already overstepped their bounds in a big way.
Maybe perfection sounds like a worthy goal to aim for in theory but the problem is that it almost never seems to happen that much in reality. So what actually happens in real life is that perfectionism usually ends up being a recipe for disappointment and discontent because extreme perfectionists will typically devalue what they have already accomplished and what they already have to be happy about and focus on everything that still isn’t quite perfect from their perspective so there is never an end in sight and on top of that they will often exaggerate the relative importance of non-issues or minor details which mostly results in more unnecessary suffering for themselves and others. What’s worse is that if a few perfectionist control freaks end up calling the shots then we typically end up with strict legalism where they will try to micromanage every detail of other people’s lives (Matthew 23:23-26).
I think that’s almost exactly what has happened in the LDS Church with man-made Mormon traditions basically being elevated to the status of set-in-stone God-given commandments. Suppose I don’t repent of everything the Church continues to insist that I should; what difference will it make in that case? My guess is that it will not matter in the least in this life or the next. I have already been there and done that for every minimum required standard the Church has explicitly set except for temple marriage and rather than feeling like I was on the right track and that not doing all this would clearly be a step down I basically felt almost no confidence that most of this was truly worthwhile. To me that says that many of these requirements are almost certainly nothing more than the commandments of men (John 7:16-17, Matthew 15:7-11, Colossians 2:16-22). I’m not saying all commandments of men are worthless or unnecessary but if it is simply mere mortals telling me what to do then there better be a good reason why I should and so far I just don’t see it with many demands the Church continues to make.
The DA gets my vote for favorite post of the month. Sent from my SCH-I500 using Tapatalk 2
Quote:I disagree with the idea that the Church has been completely right to push people so much and set a high bar of “perfection” to the extent it has so far.
DA, I agree with your central point, but to be fair to DBM, he never said that.
In fact what I did say was “that we all need to better understand the Why of works and commandments better so that we teach it more appropriately. But I also can’t take the position that the church isn’t supposed to tell us to keep them, to do them. That is one of it’s primary functions DBMormon wrote:In fact what I did say was “
that we all need to better understand the Why of works and commandments better so that we teach it more appropriately.But I also can’t take the position that the church isn’t supposed to tell us to keep them, to do them. That is one of it’s primary functions That’s half the problem with the works the Church emphasizes the most; it’s hard if not impossible to understand why anyone including God should care that much if someone drinks a cup of coffee or a few beers and little or no harm is ever done by it. I can see why God or other people would be concerned about someone smoking but I still don’t understand why they should automatically reject and condemn someone over this as “unworthy.” It’s also hard to understand why an average single income family with five or more children should be expected to pay 10% of their income as tithing when so much of it is already tied up in paying for their mortgage and other bills, groceries, and other basic living expenses. If the primary reason why is simply because God supposedly said so then the follow up question is what kind of God is that? That would make God unfair and unjust in my opinion and that’s why the only explanation that really makes sense to me is that these are clearly commandments of men.
I can understand why the 10 commandments have managed to stand the test of time much better than other “commandments” like not eating pork or shellfish and killing rebellious children (Deut. 21:18-21) because the 10 commandments are basically about preventing harm and not disrespecting God and they don’t sound like too much to ask out of the average person even now. However, if too many people dare to disobey a restriction against eating pork and shellfish and find that not only did nothing bad ever happen as a direct result but that pork and shellfish can actually be quite tasty then good luck getting them to ever put too much stock in this “commandment” again. Personally I think the WoW, tithing, and the Law of Chastity are all in the same basic category as the restriction against eating pork and shellfish; it just doesn’t make that much sense to be quite so strict and unforgiving about minor details like this nowadays.
I’m not saying the Church should openly encourage people to go ahead and be extremely selfish, promiscuous, habitually drunk, etc. but there’s a difference between preaching a supposed ideal and trying to strictly enforce it through temple recommend interview questions, peer pressure, and shunning to the point that many decent Church members have basically been driven away and never want to show their face at church again. What does all this have to do with grace? I think it shows just how much the Church doctrines and culture have become heavily unbalanced in favor of questionable works at the expense of grace to the point that everything is explicitly spelled out and members feel like they need to fulfill a long list of requirements and expectations before they can even think about being saved. Personally I think this could end up contributing to the Church’s eventual downfall if nothing changes even more than anti-Mormon information on the internet because people already have so much to worry about that when the Church tries to add all this to their plate it won’t necessarily feel like something positive for many of them.
Great post DA. I can sum it up like this. It’s not so much that I have a problem with the church telling people to keep the commandments to be saved. My problem, is the actual list of commandments they come up with that they are telling people they must keep to be saved.
AND…most of those type of problems can be traced back to the 14 F’s of the prophet ideals and concepts that have saturated our culture.
The end.
I don’t think the WOW saves us nor do I think the church teaches that. Elder McConkie said the WOW is not the gospel and the gospel is not the WOW.
God gave us the Word of wisdom so that we would be healthier and in more control using our agency (my opinion, not doctrine as God has not explicitly told us the why of the WOW).
DBMormon wrote:I don’t think the WOW saves us nor do I think the church teaches that.
Elder McConkie said the WOW is not the gospel and the gospel is not the WOW.
God gave us the Word of wisdom so that we would be healthier and in more control using our agency (my opinion, not doctrine as God has not explicitly told us the why of the WOW).
What? Only if you are Mormon you mean?
You believe that one must be endowed and married in the temple to be saved? Guess what….that means you have to keep the WoW…to be saved.
If the church doesn’t believe this, then they should quit teaching it.
Staylds can nuance the hell out of it…but as long as they require it for temple recommends…they require it for salvation.
Sent from my SCH-I500 using Tapatalk 2
cwald wrote:DBMormon wrote:I don’t think the WOW saves us nor do I think the church teaches that…Elder McConkie said the WOW is not the gospel and the gospel is not the WOW…God gave us the Word of wisdom so that we would be healthier and in more control using our agency (my opinion, not doctrine as God has not explicitly told us the why of the WOW).
What? Only if you are Mormon you mean?…You believe that
one must be endowed and married in the temple to be saved?Guess what….that means you have to keep the WoW…to be saved…If the church doesn’t believe this, then they should quit teaching it…Staylds can nuance the hell out of it…but as long as they require it for temple recommends…they require it for salvation.Exactly, if the Church doesn’t teach that the WoW is absolutely necessary for salvation then why do they ask about it directly in interviews to be baptized or to go to the temple? To me it looks like temple worthiness and temple marriage represent the current gospel according to the LDS Church and all the other teachings including the two greatest commandments according to Jesus of loving God and your neighbor are typically treated as optional for practical purposes. I agree that the WoW ideally should not be considered an essential part of the gospel because even if you want to play along with the idea that Church leaders receive all the revelations necessary to avoid leading the Church astray there never was any canonized revelation to officially change it from a generic 19th century healthy lifestyle suggestion given “not by commandment or constraint” to a case of avoiding sins supposedly worthy of eternal condemnation. However, the fact that it clearly should not be treated as such a high priority relative to everything else does not stop many Church members and leaders from acting like it is almost a matter of life or death at this point. For example, look at the following quote from the October 2010 conference:
Thomas S. Monson wrote:…there is no middle ground…Lucifer knows this. As long as we live upon this earth, Lucifer and his hosts will never abandon the hope of claiming our souls…
We are surrounded—even at times bombarded—by the messages of the adversary. Listen to some of them; they are no doubt familiar to you: “Just this once won’t matter.” “Don’t worry; no one will know.” “You can stop smoking or drinking or taking drugs any time you want.”“Everybody’s doing it, so it can’t be that bad.” The lies are endless. If I take this idea seriously then there is no way I would interpret the WoW as mostly being about God-given health suggestions rather than terrible sins that will lead to eternal condemnation for those of us who should supposedly already “know better.” What will happen if I drink coffee or beer in front of my TBM parents or brother? They would almost certainly freak out and make a big deal out of it precisely because of the same general attitude expressed by President Monson. This brings up another problem I see with the heavy emphasis on works at the expense of grace namely that it often leads to self-righteous and complacent attitudes on the part of members that are convinced they have already done almost everything they are supposed to and judgmental and disrespectful attitudes toward supposed “sinners” that do not live up to the minimum expected LDS standards (Luke 18:10-14). It has gotten to the point that it is almost impossible for many devout Mormons to live with or get along with non-Mormons or less faithful members very well. Personally I think this will increasingly cause serious problems and unnecessary suffering as more and more active members that have already been married in the temple suddenly lose faith in the Church while their families have a hard time accepting this change and the implications of it.
Quote:I agree that the WoW ideally should not be considered an essential part of the gospel because even if you want to play along with the idea that Church leaders receive all the revelations necessary to avoid leading the Church astray there never was any canonized revelation to officially change it from a generic 19th century healthy lifestyle suggestion given “not by commandment or constraint” to a case of avoiding sins supposedly worthy of eternal condemnation.
Why must a change be from a canonized revelation?Nephite wrote:Quote:I agree that the WoW ideally should not be considered an essential part of the gospel because even if you want to play along with the idea that Church leaders receive all the revelations necessary to avoid leading the Church astray there never was any canonized revelation to officially change it from a generic 19th century healthy lifestyle suggestion given “not by commandment or constraint” to a case of avoiding sins supposedly worthy of eternal condemnation.
Why must a change be from a canonized revelation?Obviously change in the doctrines and policies of the Church doesn’t have to come from a new canonized revelation and even many canonized scriptures look like they are clearly wrong after the fact not to mention that there are many official scriptures that most Church members don’t pay any attention to at this point. However, the problem I see in this case is that it seems like the Church is basing the WoW doctrine mostly on D&C 89 which already says that it was originally given “not by commandment or constraint” and that barley is good for making mild drinks (beer). So how did we go from that to what we see now where disobeying the WoW is treated like an unacceptable sin that every member needs to repent of or else they will be condemned eternally? How to do we know it wasn’t just the opinion of Heber J. Grant that it should be strictly enforced as a temple recommend requirement? Of all the things the Church could focus on why has this doctrine ended up being treated as if it is so important compared to everything else?
All have sinned, and come short of the glory of God. We will be resurrected and restored into His presence, to be judged according to our works, according to the desire of our hearts, according to the law and justice, and nothing entereth into his rest save it be those who have washed their garments in His blood, because of their faith, and the repentance of all their sins, and their faithfulness unto the end. If we confess the Lord Jesus and believe in our hearts, then we shall be saved, for if we believe on His name we will repent of all our sins, that thereby we may have a remission of them through His merits alone, for His grace is sufficient for all men that humble themselves before Him.
Therefore, we should be steadfast and immovable, always abounding in good works that we may have everlasting salvation and eternal life, through the mercy of Him who created all things.
And justification by faith through the grace of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ is just and true; And we know also, that sanctification through the grace of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ is just and true, to all those who love and serve God with all their mights, minds, and strength, and sanctification cometh because of our yielding our hearts unto God who takes away the guilt from our hearts, through the merits of His Son.
Through repentance, we have access by faith into this grace when we shall be judged according to our works, being restored into His presence that we may rejoice in hope of the glory of God.
I would add a point that is important Justification comes through Mercy through Christ’s role as Savior
Sanctification comes from Grace through Christ’s role as redeemer
hence my having a “testimony of his role as both savior and redeemer”
Justification will occur whether we love God and serve him with our hearts or not
but … and I agree with this 100%….. D&C says we must be sanctified to be Celestial
And while it is his grace that sanctifies or changes us, it can only take place in a vessel that is willing to
– submit to him
– repent when we mess up
– try follow him
– not rebel against him or his gospel
– accept and try to adhere to the principles and ordinances
We can not be sactified by doing it our way, but only by doing it his way. I leave room here for every individual to decide through the spirit what that way is exactly. but we must be careful that in disagreeing we don’t justify our position as God’s answer when it is our own
Quote:we must be careful that in disagreeing we don’t justify our position as God’s answer when it is our own
or accept what someone else says is God’s answer if it conflicts with the dictates of our own conscience or doesn’t resonate with our own heart and mind.
I admit freely that I don’t know God’s answer for anyone else – since I have a hard enough time trying to understand God answer for me. I also admit freely that I have no problem accepting the orthodox Mormon answers to questions when I haven’t reached different answers through careful, thoughtful, prayerful pondering (heart and mind) – and, even then, I don’t try to convince others of my personal answers. I just think our theology is full of enough grace that God will forgive me if I err in sincerely trying to figure out his answers and then following what I think they are to the best of my ability. I think he wants that more than he wants me to ignore my heart and mind and just go with the flow.
To me, that’s being lukewarm in the Biblical sense, and I don’t want to be spewed out for being lukewarm in that manner. (For example, I think God was able to use Saul of Tarsus to become Paul, the Apostle, because he lived passionately whatever he believed. I see Alma, the Younger, in the same way. Iow, I think their hearts were in the right place even when their minds / allegiances weren’t.)
DBMormon wrote:the key difference in my view versus many members is I felt that while works are required and are necassary they have no merit toward salvation.
Why does a Piano teacher require Practice?
Why do teachers require homework?
Why does the Lord give Commandments?
1.) if someone is less then 100% effort on these do we tell them they failed… nope but the harder they work at achieving a perfect effort the better they become, the faster they improve. The more they become like the teacher.
2.) Without a standard to push towards we would do very little to push ourselves. Think about if there was not commandments, or homework, or practice. We would never become like Pianists, or well educated, or like Christ.
3.) becasue of 1 and 2 they are required and necessary though the scriptures tell us over and over they have no merits and that we are saved by relying wholly upon the merits of Christ.
Even Bruce R. McConkie who of all people should have disagreed with me said
“Salvation is not in works–not even in those revealed of God–but in Christ and his atonement.”
I see where the scriptures say we rely wholly and alone on the merits of Christ, but I do not believe that precludes works from having merits. Perhaps works have merits even though we don’t rely on them. Are there any scriptures that say works have no merits?
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