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I think we understand that some things work for some people without working for others. 🙂 Old-Timer wrote:I think we understand that some things work for some people without working for others.
🙂 At the same time, I appreciate SamBee’s help pinpointing what it is that is valuable to me about UU worship and community.
SamBee wrote:…no serious solutions to gritty social problems, bereavement and the hard knocks of life.
Power. We want a church with real power. So power to transcend the hard knocks of life must be a core aspect of what the UU experience offers to UU’s. And in my personal experience, I can validate that assessment. When in my life the LDS Church has proved impotent, it has been most difficult. And when I have been drawn to the UU’s, a large part of the draw has been the power I find there.
SamBee wrote:There are plenty of clubs which are probably as much fun…. … my unbelief made it pointless, perhaps hypocritical to attend them.
Truth. We want more than fun. We want truth. So for UU’s (and for me), a large part of the draw must be truth.
Maybe we esteem a religion according to the Power and Truth we see in it.
Tom, I’m sorry if I came over as rude, it’s just I can’t think of anything less appealing than UU. Basically, when life is throwing everything at you, or you come from a rough background, I think moral relativism is the last thing one wants to hear.
I dare say that there probably is a positive side to UU that has been lacking in the LDS, as regards attitudes towards minorities, women etc, but that isn’t really enough for me.
SamBee wrote:It just sounds to me like a bunch of middle class folk offering cosy platitudes to one another.
At least they’re not scripted cozy platitudes. I think it sounds engaging. I’m starting to plan a clandestine visit to my local UU fellowship, or whatever they call themselves. I hope I can do it without feeling like I’m hiding pornography or something.
SamBee wrote:Tom, I’m sorry if I came over as rude, it’s just I can’t think of anything less appealing than UU.
Basically, when life is throwing everything at you, or you come from a rough background, I think moral relativism is the last thing one wants to hear.
SamBee, you are my friend. And I don’t think you have been rude at all. You have merely been honest. I hope to be so frank and candid. In a good relationship it brings out truth.
So, moral relativism, eh? This is totally a revelation for me to hear you continue to express in new nuances your impression of UU, because every time you express a distaste, it seems I have experienced the diametric opposite. In this instance, for me, UU has been an answer to the moral relativism of revealed religion. Where revealed religions tend to say morality is whatever the religion says it is, UU anchors on humanism to “guard against idolatries” and stick to the golden rule. For me at least, that’s more absolute and unchanging than a “follow the prophet” model.
I love it!
:clap: Tom – Your UU congregation sounds wonderful! Tom Haws wrote:Where revealed religions tend to say morality is whatever the religion says it is, UU anchors on humanism to “guard against idolatries” and stick to the golden rule. For me at least, that’s more absolute and unchanging than a “follow the prophet” model.
You’re damn right it is.
Tom Haws wrote:
So, moral relativism, eh? This is totally a revelation for me to hear you continue to express in new nuances your impression of UU, because every time you express a distaste, it seems I have experienced the diametric opposite. In this instance, for me, UU has been an answer to the moral relativism of revealed religion. Where revealed religions tend to say morality is whatever the religion says it is, UU anchors on humanism to “guard against idolatries” and stick to the golden rule. For me at least, that’s more absolute and unchanging than a “follow the prophet” model.I guess it’s another one of those paradoxes (why are there so many of them?) that “follow the leader” creates a dangerous mentality, yet I believe that “morality is what you make it to be” or “we are our own judges” (for want of better phrases) is also dangerous.
In one, you get a person who does whatever they’re told, right or wrong, and in the other, you get a person whose vision of right and wrong is so blurred, that they mix the two up! For fictional examples of one and the other, “The Wave” by Todd Strasser (based on real events in California), and “Crime and Punishment” by Dostoyevsky, which while fiction seems to have been influenced by people he met.
Awesome observation, SamBee. Totally on. I think the paradox is delicious. Interesting observations Sam. I guess human logic will always have the potential of danger.
I guess if anything can be learnt from that, it’s to avoid extremes! We’re wrong to give up all control, and wrong also perhaps to assume we always know best, and the other person/whatever doesn’t. I really like that conclusion, Sam.
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