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Tenor, I read your post, and I have to say I empathize with you and understand the dilemma. The TR is an issue for me as well. I think I could pretty just say “amen” to your comments – but then I have to tack on the whole WoW, tithing and garments too, to deal with when I approach the issue. Seriously, yeah SD is right I think, you need to work this out with God, but I personally don’t see how anything you said in your post would prohibit a just and merciful god from wanting you to have that TR. Sure, some, perhaps many, mormons would disagree and call you a heretic – but so what. I struggle with it too, because of the whole integrity and honor of answering the questions – but I’m thinking that I’m erroneously basing my judgment of what that means on how the Mormon culture has taught me to interpret it, rather than using my own pure spiritual faith. Does that makes sense? Can I have integrity and honor when saying I believe in god and Jesus, when really I don’t KNOW anything, and i want to believe their is something out there, and perhaps the whole concept of Jesus and the atonement is just that – nothing but a concept to help mankind overcome and draw closer to the spiritual realm? I think so Tenor. Now, of course 85% of the folks in the LDS church, my entire family included, would disagree – and call me a heathen for those beliefs since all Mormons should know that both god and Jesus are 5’10” and have white beards.
Give it some thought friend.
Fwiw, my own understanding of almost everything in the TR interview that pertains to belief is based on allegorical or figurative interpretations – and I have no problem at all answering “yes” to the questions. I know what those questions mean TO ME, and I am comfortable that God knows how I understand them and that I am being true to how I understand them – and I don’t think my personal understanding of them figuratively means my belief or testimony is any less “real” or “powerful” or anything else than other perspectives. If I look at something as “core” as the Atonement as symbolic, and someone else looks at it as physically literal, so what? Fine. No problem. To some is given to know . . . to some is given to believe . . . to some is given to remain without either knowledge or belief . . . to some is given whatever is given. I’m fine with anyone who wants to be part of the community and is willing to avoid contentiousness – and I’ve felt great peace about that on the “interviewing” side of the desk.
I have come to realize that the number of interpretations of things in the Church is incredibly wide and varied – even among leaders – even among apostles and Prophets. If that’s true, little old me having unique views isn’t significant at all.
Awhile ago, Ray posited something that really resonated with me. It is that we are more of an orthoprax church than an orthodox church. With a few notable exceptions, we really don’t care that much about what you believe, but rather what you do. With the exception of the first few, almost all of the TR questions center more around practices than beliefs. For example, when asked about sustaining the prophet, Q12 and local leaders, I interpret “sustain” as helping them magnify their callings by helping whenever I can to lessen their loads. It doesn’t mean I believe every word they say, especially in the case of local leaders. Also, the WoW question only asks if you obey it, not whether you think it’s a good idea or some silly obedience test. The challenge, the way I see it, is to believe that HF and Jesus exist, that Jesus atoned for our sins, that Joseph Smith restored the primitive gospel, and whether the BOM is the word of God. I believe the BOM being the word of God (or one of many words of God) is a totally different question than whether it’s a historical record. I also believe that forgiveness can come over time as I repent, or at least it makes it easier to forgive myself. The trick is whether or not you believe God keeps a ledger of all of your activities and a Savior is needed to balance the accounts. Admittedly, that orthodox approach is a rather harsh way of looking at it, and there’s probably a more appropriate analogy out there somewhere. But like others have said, it’s possible to pass the TR interview without feeling like your integrity has to take a back seat. Quote:The trick is whether or not you believe God keeps a ledger of all of your activities and a Savior is needed to balance the accounts.
or any other interpretation of the saving / redeeming principle that makes sense to you.
I like the “God won’t punish me in any way for things that are outside my control – and he will love me and be more merciful to me than I would tend to be with myself” interpretation. Having said that, I also cobble together elements from lots of other explanations, since I really like elements of almost all of them I’ve heard.
Steve-hpias wrote:For example, when asked about sustaining the prophet, Q12 and local leaders, I interpret “sustain” as helping them magnify their callings by helping whenever I can to lessen their loads.
This is actually a much lower standard than Steve articulates here , in my experience. There are some hardcore leaders that will pull temple recommends for not doing home teaching, but usually, I find there’s no willingness to put teeth into that question. As long as you’re putting in some minimal effort, I think most Bishops will give you an approval on this question.
Great post Steve-hpias! tenor79 wrote:…the TR questions…have at least a baseline common meaning that all believers should share, or else the questions are all meaningless….
If this is important to you, you can do what I did, air your true feelings in a “pre-interview” talk, then give your nuanced answers once the actual recommend interview begins.
tenor79 wrote:If I believe in the Judeo-Christian God, I’m probably not also going to say that I also have a testimony of Zeus, Krishna, Ra, Thor, Baal, or any other deities from different faith traditions.
In time you may see this differently, but I appreciate the difficulty of your current position, and I wouldn’t want you to compromise your integrity in any way.
tenor79 wrote:…a testimony of the restoration… at least means something about God moving to reveal things that affect the mortal and eternal destinies of human beings.
Note that the question doesn’t even mention God. Could the ambiguity of these questions be deliberate? Could there be a reason the question doesn’t say, “Do you believe God restored all things through Joseph Smith to a world in complete darkness?”
What has the restoration of the Gospel meant in your life these past few little whiles?
tenor79 wrote:Having a testimony of priesthood authority
Note that there is no question about whether anybody has heavenly authority on earth. The question simply asks whether you sustain President Monson as the only person on earth authorized (by the church????) to exercise all (Melchizedek and Aaronic????) priesthood keys.
tenor79 wrote:I find that the teachings of the historical man Jesus are some of the greatest principles for wholesome living I’ve come across, and that they fall in line with things other great spiritual leaders have said.
Then you believe those teachings have
redeeming and savingeffect on the world, do you not? And you believe the ministry of Jesus is still bringing us into onementwith each other and with God, do you not? Then why not say yes? Give your early disclaimers if you must, then answer yes with all the conviction of your fervent heart. tenor79 wrote:I have serious doubts about the exclusivity or depth of any spiritual restoration,
The questions don’t mention exclusivity or breadth. All they ask is whether (in my words) you believe in “gospel restoration now”. Boy, do I, thank heaven for leading me onward daily! And whether you sustain President Monson as the Presiding High Priest. Well, now, I want to know who you are stumping for to replace him.
😆 tenor79 wrote:and I’m not sure about the state of our days as “latter”.
Can’t “latter” just mean “lately”?
tenor79 wrote:I don’t have any spiritual witness that the leaders of the LDS Church have any special or exclusive authorization to officiate
The “only true… on the face of the earth” wording isn’t in the questions. The questions don’t ask you to disclaim the Catholic Church or Islam. They only ask you to sustain President Monson as the leader. Can you perhaps think of it as a simple loyalty question, as in “Are you a good team player?”
tenor79 wrote:I do question the “prophetic-ness” of most/all leaders, however, especially as I don’t see them acting the way I would expect prophets to act. I don’t know if in so thinking, I’m expecting too much of the men at the head of the Church, who are imperfect and make mistakes. At the same time, however, I feel like if God truly leads the LDS Church, then there would be fewer mistakes and more revelatory, prophetic behavior. Or is prophetic behavior different than prophetic behavior in times past? Has God changed his ways?
Consider that they are prophets in the same sense you are. If you, the prophet, led the church, would there be mistakes? Do you, the prophet, have a bat phone to Heaven? Do you fumble?
You have every reason to be disillusioned and disheartened. You have every reason to cry out, “It just isn’t the way they always told me!!!!! The apostles are no more prophets than I am!” But that’s not what the temple recommend question asks. At some point we are able to stop screaming long enough to simply answer the question as it’s asked. Are they prophets? Yes, bishop, as are you and I, and I sustain them as such!
Quote:For my part, I’m in full blown Stage 4 disaffection, complete with anger toward the Church and a desire to cut my own faith path, as it were.
This is a major issue. Being in Stage 4 makes it really tough for your Stage 3 wife, and also for you. It’s going to be hard to respect each other while you’re still “in the grip” of Stage 4. I’d find some quick ways to unbox your beefs and get clear on what’s good too. I’d also put marriage first, but you have to be yourself, too. Marriage counseling would definitely help.
Quote:I love my wife, but most recently when I told her that, she said that she’s worried that my love isn’t enough. Although she doesn’t verbalize it, I’m pretty sure she feels like she deserves more. After all, she’s been a TBM her whole life, and when we married almost 9 years ago, she thought she was marrying a man that would be firm in the faith throughout her life. Now, she’s not sure if many of the hopes and plans for her life will be realized if things don’t change.
This is likely how she’s feeling. You’ve thrown a curve ball her way. What she thought was going to be one way is now another. You have changed. Guess what? All marriages face change. Spouses don’t stay the same forever. Mormon Therapist has written a lot of great advice on this topic. Your wife has to be a great Christian and committed to the marriage to make this work, but that is what she should try to do. Your job is to put the marriage first – to live up to your marriage covenants even if you doubt or disbelieve the church. She has to make her own choices ultimately. The best thing you can do is to be a great husband and love her and be committed to your family even while you work your own stuff out.
Quote:I’m conscious of this, and I would love nothing more for this all to go away so that both she and I could start enjoying our lives more than we do right now. But I really don’t see any way back without some sort of major personal revelation, and even then it will be fraught with lots of pain and cognitive dissonance that would have to simply be shelved long-term.
I really do believe that some sort of major personal revelation can take you from Stage 4 to Stage 5 and even if your cog dis doesn’t go away, you have enough to hang onto to find ways to make it work inside the church. That’s my experience at least. But many don’t have that. If that doesn’t happen, I’d go through a systematic stripping down and building back up exercise. Strip down what you can’t accept / what really irritates you. Then build back up the things that you find value in. Start there and work back up. It’s not equivalent to a spiritual experience, but you may not be able to have a spiritual experience when you are still “in the grip.” I did, but not everyone does.
hawkgrrrl wrote:I really do believe that some sort of major personal revelation can take you from Stage 4 to Stage 5 and even if your cog dis doesn’t go away, you have enough to hang onto to find ways to make it work inside the church. That’s my experience at least. But many don’t have that. If that doesn’t happen, I’d go through a systematic stripping down and building back up exercise. Strip down what you can’t accept / what really irritates you. Then build back up the things that you find value in. Start there and work back up.
That’s pretty good advice.
Compartmentalization can be a great way to deal with things.
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