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DarkJedi wrote:SamBee wrote:
It’s difficult being an SA. I feel like I have been castrated. I see no marriage prospects for me but at the same time I have retained my natural urges.
Sam, I have been there, I have felt like this, and I am sorry.
Thanks DJ. It angers me a bit – I’m simultaneously asexual and sexual, it puts me in a difficult position. (No pun intended
😳 )My one consolation is that as a male I don’t have the same age constraints a female does, as concerns having children. I see marriage as a two way thing of course, but I do have emotional and physical needs of my own. I’ve ended up very isolated due to factors outside my control (family dying) but I would like to set up my own. However, I’m also very socially awkward, useless with women, and we have no SA here at all.
On the one hand, I am glad that I am not out there being promiscuous, but on the other hand is my repressed sexuality good for my mental health?
mikegriffith1 wrote:If you take God and Satan out of the discussion, you have already lost the battle because you are ignoring the very real spiritual aspect of the issue.
The “practical” arguments against early sexual activity, if approached from a purely secular standpoint, are subjective and can be pretty easily refuted. For example, one could make the point that if nature did not intend for pubescent 12-year-old girls to have sex, why are they pubescent? Furthermore, one could note, in previous eras it was considered normal and acceptable for young pubescent girls to marry and have children. Additionally, one could observe that many 12-year-old girls are more mature and wiser than some 18-year-old boys. So, from a purely secular point of view, one could make a credible case that pubescent 12-year-old girls should be allowed to explore sexual activity.
But in response, from a secular view point you could just say that by reason and logic its not a good decision for a 12 year old to explore sexual activity (I’m sure there are a number of studies that would back this up that have nothing to do with God or Satan). Or you might just call it common sense.
[personal insult deleted] [Admin Note]: If Mike can’t use sweeping insults, others can’t respond with personal insults.
Of all the issues facing current and future generations porn is not even close to the top of my list. Quote:From a secular view point you could just say that by reason and logic its not a good decision for a 12 year old to explore sexual activity (I’m sure there are a number of studies that would back this up that have nothing to do with God or Satan).
That is exactly the current stance throughout the psychiatric, social work and medical communities in this country.
SunbeltRed wrote:mikegriffith1 wrote:If you take God and Satan out of the discussion, you have already lost the battle because you are ignoring the very real spiritual aspect of the issue.
The “practical” arguments against early sexual activity, if approached from a purely secular standpoint, are subjective and can be pretty easily refuted. For example, one could make the point that if nature did not intend for pubescent 12-year-old girls to have sex, why are they pubescent? Furthermore, one could note, in previous eras it was considered normal and acceptable for young pubescent girls to marry and have children. Additionally, one could observe that many 12-year-old girls are more mature and wiser than some 18-year-old boys. So, from a purely secular point of view, one could make a credible case that pubescent 12-year-old girls should be allowed to explore sexual activity.
But in response, from a secular view point you could just say that by reason and logic its not a good decision for a 12 year old to explore sexual activity (I’m sure there are a number of studies that would back this up that have nothing to do with God or Satan). Or you might just call it common sense.
[personal insult deleted] [Admin Note]: If Mike can’t use sweeping insults, others can’t respond with personal insults.
For 12 year old females to explore it is a bad idea, and not unlikely to give you cervical cancer.
mikegriffith1 wrote:If you take God and Satan out of the discussion, you have already lost the battle because you are ignoring the very real spiritual aspect of the issue.
The “practical” arguments against early sexual activity, if approached from a purely secular standpoint, are subjective and can be pretty easily refuted. For example, one could make the point that if nature did not intend for pubescent 12-year-old girls to have sex, why are they pubescent? Furthermore, one could note, in previous eras it was considered normal and acceptable for young pubescent girls to marry and have children. Additionally, one could observe that many 12-year-old girls are more mature and wiser than some 18-year-old boys. So, from a purely secular point of view, one could make a credible case that pubescent 12-year-old girls should be allowed to explore sexual activity.
I am currently taking a class on business ethics. There is utilitarianism or consequentialism that judges actions based on their consequences. There is the deontological approach that is based on duty and that is independent of consequences. This latter category is where the traditional Judeo-Christian approach to morality is found.
I agree that in some limited cases one may reach differing conclusions depending on what approach to morality is employed but that is not the same thing as saying that without God or Satan anything can be justified. I do not generally see athiests making the argument that 12 yr old girls should be sexually active. It may require some deep thinking about why we do what we do, but in the end I believe that there are many valid reasons (and approaches) to choose the good.
mikegriffith1 wrote:If you take God and Satan out of the discussion, you have already lost the battlebecause you are ignoring the very real spiritual aspect of the issue…The “practical” arguments against early sexual activity, if approached from a purely secular standpoint, are subjective and can be pretty easily refuted. For example, one could make the point that if nature did not intend for pubescent 12-year-old girls to have sex, why are they pubescent?Furthermore, one could note, in previous eras it was considered normal and acceptable for young pubescent girls to marry and have children. Additionally, one could observe that many 12-year-old girls are more mature and wiser than some 18-year-old boys. So, from a purely secular point of view, one could make a credible case that pubescent 12-year-old girls should be allowed to explore sexual activity. I believe in God and am probably as open to the possibility that Satan exists as anyone that posts here but I don’t see how any of this really helps the cause of God and chastity as taught by the Church as opposed to secularism. Think about it, why would God create people in a such way that their bodies are basically full of hormones at such a young age and then expect them to wait until they are married something like 8-15 years later before having any sexual experiences whatsoever? Any typical standard Mormon answers such as that life is supposedly a test and we need to learn the importance of obedience and sacrifice don’t really explain this very well. For example, how many returned missionaries that get married in the temple actually go all this time without ever masturbating multiple times? My guess is that it would be less than 5-10% but certainly a small minority.
So what good did all the hype, guilt-trips, worthiness interviews, etc. really do if it didn’t change anything in all these cases if it is supposedly so important for any sexual experiences to only involve our legal spouse? Then when you consider that the majority of Church members are inactive and over 99% of the people in the world are not Mormon if things really work the way the Church claims it seems like Satan is basically playing with a stacked deck and loaded dice from the outset and doesn’t really need to do anything, he could mostly just sit around and watch nature take its course repeatedly. To me it makes much more sense that God would be more understanding and forgiving than this heavy-handed portrayal and it is mostly people that tend to become extremely judgmental and harsh, obsessed with rules and familiar traditions, etc. (Luke 18:9-14, John 8:4-11).
DevilsAdvocate wrote:Then when you consider that the majority of Church members are inactive and over 99% of the people in the world are not Mormon if things really work the way the Church claims it seems like Satan is basically playing with a stacked deck and loaded dice from the outset and doesn’t really need to do anything, he could mostly just sit around and watch nature take its course repeatedly. To me it makes much more sense that God would be more understanding and forgiving than this heavy-handed portrayal and it is mostly people that tend to become extremely judgmental and harsh, obsessed with rules and familiar traditions, etc. (Luke 18:9-14, John 8:4-11).
This. The deck is stacked against us, and if the atonement is real, IMHO grace is gained just by making it through mortality (that is my Universalist bent coming through).
DevilsAdvocate wrote:Think about it, why would God create people in a such way that their bodies are basically full of hormones at such a young age and then expect them to wait until they are married something like 8-15 years later before having any sexual experiences whatsoever?
There is an element of gaining experience in this mortal life through making responsible choices, showing control of the physical body, and having self-worth and pride when setting goals and sticking to them. Especially for youth.
It doesn’t make much sense God would create 2 trees in the Garden of Eden either, unless you see the need for choice and experience, amid dilemma and paradox. Eve figured it out.
Heber13 wrote:DevilsAdvocate wrote:Think about it, why would God create people in a such way that their bodies are basically full of hormones at such a young age and then expect them to wait until they are married something like 8-15 years later before having any sexual experiences whatsoever?
There is an element of gaining experience in this mortal life through making responsible choices, showing control of the physical body, and having self-worth and pride when setting goals and sticking to them. Especially for youth.
You can learn lots of those same lessons by choosing to be in a monogamous relationship.
The 8-15 year wait might have more to do with man/society than with god. The evolutionary explanation might be that we get those urges before our brains fully develop to make sure we propagate the species before we get a chance to reason ourselves out of it.
😆 Still that same underdeveloped ability to use procreative powers responsibly is that same underdeveloped ability that can lead children down the path of developing unhealthy attitudes towards sex. Saying things like it is a sin next to murder come to mind.
nibbler wrote:The 8-15 year wait might have more to do with man/society than with god.
Actually….most, if not all, the commandments, might be more about man/society than with god.
But…I still think there is wisdom to give guidance on waiting until prepared for adult things. Let the kids enjoy being kids and not rush to adulthood.
12 year olds could physically vote, but we don’t let them.
Most 12 year olds could reach the pedals and drive a car, but we make them wait. For their safety and others.
Those aren’t bad things that society has established as safeguards to help protect us. Right? Is that so different than acknowledging God gave us hormones and expected us to wait 8-15 years to have any sexual experience with them? Perhaps the problem is the extremes…15 years seems too long for something so natural, perhaps “any sexual experience” is too prudish. But if we’re talking about something so important it can change lives…like procreation or individual development…rules to control sexual urges seems like a good idea.
Perhaps there is wisdom in balancing the ideas…that it is good to wait until more ideal circumstances is wise teaching (like waiting until they are adults and no longer living in my house as a dependent), and healthy ideas of sex and their own sexuality is also wise teaching…and maybe avoid the extremes.
nibbler wrote:Saying things like it is a sin next to murder come to mind.
Ya…totally agree. That’s just not healthy teaching. Way too extreme.
Not much to add but I did want to say that I agree with your points. Heber13 wrote:Perhaps there is wisdom in balancing the ideas…that it is good to wait until more ideal circumstances is wise teaching (like waiting until they are adults and no longer living in my house as a dependent), and healthy ideas of sex and their own sexuality is also wise teaching…and maybe avoid the extremes.
Yup!
:thumbup: What Heber13 said. I’ve worked in areas where the default is to NOT wait at least the 8 year minimum mentioned – and the results are catastrophic. Seriously, that word is not hyperbole.
nibbler wrote:Heber13 wrote:DevilsAdvocate wrote:Think about it, why would God create people in a such way that their bodies are basically full of hormones at such a young age and then expect them to wait until they are married something like 8-15 years later before having any sexual experiences whatsoever?
There is an element of gaining experience in this mortal life through making responsible choices, showing control of the physical body, and having self-worth and pride when setting goals and sticking to them. Especially for youth.
The 8-15 year wait might have more to do with man/society than with god.Not if God supposedly told Church leaders that all able young men in the Church should serve a full-time mission before getting married (for the approximate 8 year minimum wait). I agree that the trend of average marriage ages increasing to about age 26 for women and 28 for men in the US is mostly if not entirely about people’s choices and cultural changes not necessarily related to religion rather than something encouraged by the Church. However, I still think there are good reasons for this such as that people’s brains supposedly aren’t fully developed until around age 25, there is a correlation between getting married relatively young and higher rates of divorce, and it certainly makes sense why many people would be more concerned with career goals over getting married when they don’t have a very good job, are still in school, etc.
Basically, it doesn’t look like a case where you can simply say that members should just hurry and get married and then it wouldn’t be that hard to live the law of Chastity when some of the potential consequences of this option are far worse in reality than being a “licked cupcake” ever was like having a bad marriage, divorce, etc. not to mention that there are 30-plus year old virgins or divorced members that end up remaining alone year after year simply because they can’t find anyone they feel comfortable about getting married to. Not that everyone necessarily needs to be married or in a relationship to be happy but I get the impression that in some of these cases many Church members would not have chosen this without believing the Church’s teachings that sex is supposedly only for marriage and they should only consider marrying other “worthy” Church members.
It’s easy for Church leaders to act like dogmatic answers such as that sex is only for marriage and it shouldn’t be that hard for single members to get married ASAP are a one-size-fits-all solution for everyone when they don’t have to live with the long-term consequences of decisions based on bad advice like this. Basically I think many Church leaders and members are looking at this backwards because they start with the answer that there shouldn’t ever be any sexual experience before marriage and then try to fit everything else around that as if marriage is nothing more than some kind of crude sex-permit and take it for granted that health and happiness will automatically follow from this approach when in many cases it just doesn’t work out that way.
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