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First off, thank you for this web site and forum. I discovered this one day as I was at an all time low in my faith. What a blessing this has been. My story is simple. I struggle with Joseph Smith. I was first exposed to the church’s “real” history while at BYU. I was a history major at BYU (quickest way into law school). Between classes, I would head over to the library and read whatever I could get my hands on. Nauvoo was a favorite topic. I then was introduced to a very different prophet. From then on, I had my doubts, but I decided to keep my distance from the topic. By that time, I was a returned missionary, married in the temple and I genuially loved my membership in the church. Plus, I was growing in the gospel on so many other levels that I was able to simply push it off (some would say bury). After graduation we left Utah. I was made a high priest, served on high councils and served in bishoprics. It generally bugs me when the anti-mormon crowd feels compelled to list their mormon credentials and I cringe by doing so here, but it is an important aspect of my story. As I progressed in the church and was given callings of more and more responsibility, I began to feel extremely burdened by the thought that I had serious doubts about the origins of the Church. From time to time I would go back to my love of Church history using only works written by LDS or credible historians, hoping that some brave soul would provide some much needed clarity. Each time I was left with more doubt, which turned into anguish and significant stress. I was now “stuck.” Here I was, in a bishopric, serving side by side with men that I truly admired for their service and love of the savior, doing my best to strenthen and support those with whome I served, but yet I could not boldly proclaim that Joseph was a prophet. For so many years I was taught that if Joseph was indeed a prophet called of God, then all else, including the Book of Mormon and temples, was God’s work. I believed that then and I still believe that now. However, I can’t get past Joseph Smith, so it casts doubt in my mind about the Book of Mormon, the first vision, temples and the overall notion that this is the “one and only true church.” At times my doubt would give way to my desire to simply serve those around me. I find great joy in my church service as I truly believe that the principles of the gospel are best expressed when we lose our self in the service of others. However, my responsibilities in the church required much more of me. Imagine the distress I would feel when I would issue temple recommends. I would stare at the questions and the thoughts would come into my mind, “you are a hypocrite”! I would stay up late at night wondering how I would be able to gracefully get out of this situation. How could I tell my wife, how could I tell my bishop, a man that I loved, admired, respected, a true man of God. He would show me compassion, it was his way, but I was not ready to come clean. With my wife, it was easy. She sensed it from the start. I finally told her my thoughts. I was careful not to share with her all of the history, because I knew from my own experience how earth shattering this information can be. She supports me and wants me to be honest with myself and to no longer live in fear. Then something amazing hapened. I took a new job (my dream job) out of state which reuqired me to be releaseed. What I tremendous relief. But now I am struggling to determie what course to pursue. I have so many questions. Is it possible for Joseph to have been a prophet chosen by God, but perhaps he fell later in life? What if he was simply a con man, is it intellectually dishonest to want to stay among the the community of sants that believes just the opposite? Will I even be accepted? What should I tell my children? There is so much good in the Church. When I hear our leaders today, I believe that they are men of God. Surely they know this history, how have they been able to move past it and still have faith in the “one true” concept?
Hi Bluegrass – Welcome. I don’t assume I can answer all of your questions. If you spend time reading the site you will probably find a topic for each of your questions. As you read the responses it may help you decide for yourself what is authentic for you moving forward. That authenticity for each individual seems to be the healing key for everyone. How long that takes is as individual as we are.
As I read your post it appears you have found good in the LDS tradition. Those maybe your best places to re build your personal faith tradition. Then one at a time you can pick up a new piece examine it, try it on, assess it and decide if it fits your testimony in your heart.
For myself I am coming to see that even among traditional practicing members there is a lot of variance in what they believe in or why they believe what they do. Some of it is rhetoric, some of it is social connection (I mean that in the sense of saying cliche’s such as “I know the church is true”.) Some of it is from a hope that they really are in a church or on a path the leads to God. Some of it is simply because everything is going well in their life. (A little like when we get into or see a bad car accident. For days we drive along cavalierly, but getting hit or seeing an accident jars our comfort and we drive a little more alertly and responsible.)
You ask about Joseph Smith and his prophetness, for now I leave that between Joseph and God. I don’t mean that as a cop-out. I could see the judgement falling either way. But when I read about the Old Testament prophets, particularly Jacob (of Abraham, Issac and Jacob fame) – his life and family were way messed up, multiple times over and yet according to scripture God still called him a prophet. That leaves me with an “I don’t know” – so I continue on with Jesus Christ as the anchor. I’m not being noble. I just find that I need the distance to help me maintain my balance. Since I don’t believe Joseph answers my prayers, heals my illness, or atoned for my sins – I can set him aside for awhile. I don’t ignore him. I pick him up a lot. There is much I like about him. I also know I don’t get it and can’t get an ulcer from trying to figure it out.
Most of all take your time. Every question you have has been discussed here before and we love to do it again. Good luck.
Bluegrass wrote:…From time to time I would go back to my love of Church history using only works written by LDS or credible historians, hoping that some brave soul would provide some much needed clarity.
Each time I was left with more doubt, which turned into anguish and significant stress.I was now “stuck.” Here I was, in a bishopric, serving side by side with men that I truly admired for their service and love of the savior, doing my best to strenthen and support those with whome I served, but yet I could not boldly proclaim that Joseph was a prophet. For so many years I was taught that if Joseph was indeed a prophet called of God, then all else, including the Book of Mormon and temples, was God’s work. I believed that then and I still believe that now. However, I can’t get past Joseph Smith…Imagine the distress I would feel when I would issue temple recommends. I would stare at the questions and the thoughts would come into my mind, “you are a hypocrite”! I would stay up late at night wondering how I would be able to gracefully get out of this situation. How could I tell my wife, how could I tell my bishop, a man that I loved, admired, respected, a true man of God. He would show me compassion, it was his way, but I was not ready to come clean…There is so much good in the Church. When I hear our leaders today, I believe that they are men of God. Surely they know this history, how have they been able to move past it and still have faith in the “one true” concept? Welcome to StayLDS; it was interesting to hear your story. The hardest part for me was definitely wondering what I should tell my wife, bishop, etc. (if anything) about my doubts. Personally I think it’s too bad that so many Church members feel like they don’t belong in the Church or there is no reason they should stick around unless they believe in almost every single thing the Church teaches as if it needs to be a package deal. I can’t imagine nearly as many Catholics feeling like hypocrites sacrificing their integrity and that maybe they should leave their church simply because they don’t believe in transubstantiation, that the Pope is infallible, etc. and/or are embarrassed by some of their church’s ancient history. I guess a typical all-or-nothing mindset is just part of the way the LDS Church has evolved so far and it’s hard for members to resist thinking this way but as far as I’m concerned just because they say it that doesn’t mean you need to believe it or even worry that much about it in many cases.
Thank you for sharing your experience. I am also new to this site and have found great comfort in knowing that others are experiencing similar feelings related to Joseph Smith and subsequently BoM, Temple, WofW, etc. I have no words of wisdom to share…Only to say that I completely understand where you are coming from and I think it is good to question and search for answers. God knows our hearts and will lead each of us where he wants us to be, whether that be in the church or elsewhere. The difficulty comes is being true to what God is speaking, even if it is contrary to what we have held as the only truth for so long.
I am trying to look at this new found knowledge as a journey that will bring me closer to understanding God’s will in my life.
I accept that Joseph Smith wasn’t perfect, that maybe he did things that ticked people off & that’s why he was killed. But that doesn’t take away the fact that he acted prophetically, by leading a people in a new perspective/belief.
In many way, that new way was better, & in many ways it’s worse.
Focus on the good and try to minimize or avoid the bad. (The same with every relationship or organization.)
Welcome. Building your own faith can be scary (particularly in a roller-coaster way), but it’s the only way to own it as your own. I hope we can help in that process – and that we can learn from you.
I am new here and i am kind of thankful that other people are having some doubts about the origin of the church, and i say kind of because if other people are having doubts – and there are many of us out there – than maybe there is some truth to what we think. My doubts first started 25 years ago when a man was called to be first councilor in the bishopric in our ward while he was molesting his children – as I found out later. I wondered where the power of discernment was when they called him to that position. Previous to this i had been confronted by a good friend who left the church when she found out about Joseph’s Smith ‘s ties to the Masons. But i loved the church and decided not to let it weaken my faith. Then Five years ago when i started spending more time on the computer, I came across several news items about the church being sued because some Bishops were not reporting sexual assault cases to the appropriate authorities. I trusted when the church was quoted as saying that policies were now in place so that all Bishop’s would understand church procedures, that that would be the end of it. So i kind of let it go, and i say kind of, because I still had questions that i felt i needed answers to. Three weeks ago while i was looking for a news article from the online” Deseret” newspaper about a Bishop being charged with sexual assault, i came across several others news articles about other men who had positions of trust in our church, that had been arrested for child molestation. How could this be ? I cannot just look away this time. I need to know how this could be happening. Either our church has become corrupt or always was or God is a pervert and of course i chose the former. I have been doing some research about some things that people are saying about Joseph Smith being a fraud, and i am afraid of what i’m reading and i am not getting this stuff from anti Mormons- I know better than that. Right now, Joseph Smith being a fraud is the only thing that makes sense to me. I literally feel sick to my stomach over this. I have a son returning form his mission this coming Tuesday, and i don’t know how or when i am going to tell him about this or my other son for that matter. He is a return missionary who is newly married with a new baby girl. Every time i look at my granddaughter i worry about her growing up in this church- which in my opinion has become a safe haven for pedophiles- as have all churches. I would love to hear your thoughts about why you think this has been happening in God’s church for so long. Surely he must see what”s happening to these young children. These are the questions that keep plaguing my mind:1.If the church is true and Bishops and stake presidents etc.. have the power of discernment, then why are these child molesters being called to positions of trust?
2, How can it be that the church’s policy is to re-baptize sex offenders as long thy have repented and then not keep a close eye on them? I have know for 30 years now that child molesters usually re-offend, even when they say they have repented. They are master-manipulators and can make you believe what they want you to believe. Church therapists would know that.
3 Why didn’t the church make this very serious problem priority, and get the experts to help them figure out a plan for this growing problem, along time ago?.
4.If this is God’s true church then why hasn’t the prophet received revelation fromm God about this matter. Surely God must see what’s happening to young children in his church.
5. Knowing all that’s going on in our church now, how do we trust that Joseph Smith, who was a Mason when he started this church, is not a fraud.?
6. How can the church expect anyone to believe in the power of discernment or trust anyone, including bishops, teachers and stake presidents now?
veggielover wrote:These are the questions that keep plaguing my mind:1.If the church is true and Bishops and stake presidents etc.. have the power of discernment, then why are these child molesters being called to positions of trust?
2, How can it be that the church’s policy is to re-baptize sex offenders as long thy have repented and then not keep a close eye on them? I have know for 30 years now that child molesters usually re-offend, even when they say they have repented. They are master-manipulators and can make you believe what they want you to believe. Church therapists would know that.
3 Why didn’t the church make this very serious problem priority, and get the experts to help them figure out a plan for this growing problem, along time ago?.
4.If this is God’s true church then why hasn’t the prophet received revelation fromm God about this matter. Surely God must see what’s happening to young children in his church.
5. Knowing all that’s going on in our church now, how do we trust that Joseph Smith, who was a Mason when he started this church, is not a fraud.?
6. How can the church expect anyone to believe in the power of discernment or trust anyone, including bishops, teachers and stake presidents now?
Welcome Veggielover!:wave: 1. The church is an organization made up of imperfect people, many of whom are easily fooled by people who are good at deceiving.
2. I agree, sex offenders should always be watched, no matter what. I think that generally, they are, which is why bishops must give the ok in callings – he has a list of the backgrounds of members.
3. It’s not a priority, unfortunately. The church has many great aspects (community, standards etc.) but it also is loaded with cognitive distortions that contribute to mental illness.
4. It has been addressed to a limited extent, in conference talks and in the scout program, but I agree – there should be more openness about this “uncomfortable” topic.
5. Of course, Joseph Smith was a fraud, so are we. Who is perfect? Who is not deceived & then deceives others at times?
Someone compared Joseph Smith with Beethoven… Beethoven was pretty messed up in his life, an alcoholic & pretty mean to others, but his music is incredible. Joseph Smith may have done some pretty messed up things, but the religious movement he began is incredible. There are truths he helped bring to light – focus on those, & be aware of the negatives, to avoid them.
6. “Thou shalt have no other gods before God.”
“Trust not in the arm of flesh.”
“Charity never faileth” but all else WILL fail.
Consider this a great reminder to build your faith on a strong foundation of God/Love, NOT on a weaky foundation of imperfect human beings.
My own answers: Quote:1.If the church is true and Bishops and stake presidents etc.. have the power of discernment, then why are these child molesters being called to positions of trust?
The power of discernment isn’t given carte blanche in its entirety to every person called as a Bishop or Stake President, all of whom are human. Having said that, I do believe in discernment to a greater degree than normal to those who are prone to it, pray for it and who serve in positions where it is necessary. That’s not just Bishops and Stake Presidents or even just church callings. It’s just that nobody is perfect in that regard.
Quote:2, How can it be that the church’s policy is to re-baptize sex offenders as long thy have repented and then not keep a close eye on them? I have know for 30 years now that child molesters usually re-offend, even when they say they have repented. They are master-manipulators and can make you believe what they want you to believe. Church therapists would know that.
Every convicted sex offender of whom the Church is aware has an asterisk on their membership record. It is flagged for a very good reason – but I have heard other members complain about that flagging policy, since they say repentance should wipe the slate clean. I have no problem whatsoever with flagging the records of members who have been convicted of abuse. They can slip through the cracks, and leaders can make mistakes, but I agree with the intent of the Church’s policy.
Quote:3 Why didn’t the church make this very serious problem priority, and get the experts to help them figure out a plan for this growing problem, a long time ago?
Churches historically have been slower than society in this regard, given the desire to honor sincere repentance. This isn’t an LDS problem – or even just a religion problem. Trying to balance repentance and trust is a human problem – as is the desire not to believe and confront evil when it is not obvious.
Quote:4.If this is God’s true church then why hasn’t the prophet received revelation from God about this matter? Surely God must see what’s happening to young children in his church.
How do you know He hasn’t? I mean that. The policies absolutely have changed in my lifetime. Whether that is revelation or enhanced awareness, the Church is FAR more sensitive now than it used to be – and, again, that’s true of pretty much everyone now compared to the past.
Quote:5. Knowing all that’s going on in our church now, how do we trust that Joseph Smith, who was a Mason when he started this church, is not a fraud?
Why would Joseph being a Mason make him a fraud? Seriously; why would that make him a fraud? I know quite a few Masons, and not one of them is someone I would call a fraud – at least, no more than you and I are frauds.
Quote:6. How can the church expect anyone to believe in the power of discernment or trust anyone, including bishops, teachers and stake presidents now?
Because good, sincere people, generally, are trustworthy – but, when it comes down to it, nobody should trust anyone (including themselves) absolutely and blindly. There is unhealthy naivete, and there is unhealthy cynicism. Peace is found somewhere between those extremes, and you have to accept that middle reality to start trusting again.
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