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I have some thoughts, Silent. First, I agree completely with the efficacy of CBT. CBT is, by nature, more directed and goal oriented and SHORTER than some other therapies, but if you can’t currently afford the therapy, seek books on the subject from your local library for free. Self-help books can be very beneficial, especially when you can peruse through several at the library before latching on to one that seems to fit. I would look first at books on Rational Emotive Therapy since you’ve already experienced that. Look at the work of Albert Ellis, who is basically the guy who came up with RET. Also, I would suggest looking at books geared toward clinicians and therapists, not just the general lay-person. You’re experienced and intelligent and can learn well from such books. If you seek a therapist, find one that uses CBT (most all of them do), but remember the best predictor of therapy outcome is the therapeutic relationship. Which means, if it’s not clicking with your therapist, find someone else. The therapist/counselor will understand.
Second, I have a question about a couple of things you said. You said you react or reacted “violently”. What do you mean?
You also mentioned people getting upset at your “character” or condemning your character. People generally get mad and upset at actions–the things people do that make us mad–but often make generalized statements that sometimes addresses the “character” of the offender. Kids do these kinds of things all the time (e.g., “He sucks”, “She’s a brat”, etc.). Adults, however, are usually mature enough to focus on the action or event that was offensive. If your offenders didn’t do that, but instead attacked your character, that would be tough for anyone. Since they wrote a long, detailed letter, however, I’m guessing they probably attacked specific things that you did (and maybe summarized this into some “character” deficit). For a person with self-esteem difficulties, it can be really hard to separate actions/words/or events from more globalized things like “character”. What I mean, is if I tell such a person something like “Why didn’t you make it a TWO sided buffet?” that person may easily interpret that as “I’m a bad host,” or “he thinks I’m an idiot,” even when such an intent was never there. It helps to think very objectively, take the Joe Friday approach of “just the facts, ma’am”, and teach and train your brain to look at the facts without trying to interpret anything that’s unknown. That is natural and easy for some people and hard for others, but that’s basically CBT–making the obvious obvious.
Finally, understand and tell your brain that what you’re feeling is NOT a character flaw anymore than being myopic is a character flaw, or hyperopic, or diabetic, or ADHD. It is what it is. We all have flaws and we all make mistakes, thank the Lord, or this world would be boring as hell, but depression has nothing to do with character and everything to do with biology and sociology. It’s also rather common and highly treatable. Research is clear that the best treatment for true major depressive disorder is a combination of medication and CBT. If you have this malady, your brain works differently than most of the rest of us (but not nearly all of the rest of us). If it bothers you enough, seek treatment, which you already have it sounds like. Sometimes depression turned outwards looks angry and violent, which is why I asked for more details on your statements about violence because those kinds of actions can really hurt other people so need to be addressed first. Fortunately, depressed people can usually learn to control their anger pretty well.
Cnsl1 wrote:I have some thoughts, Silent.
Second, I have a question about a couple of things you said. You said you react or reacted “violently”. What do you mean?
I was going to take that word “violent” out of my exposition earlier, but I liked the hyperbole. In retrospect, it was the wrong word considering the direction it’s taken your post. I don’t have any issues with anger or violent behavior, but I think my tendencies to personalize and struggle with my thoughts does a form of “violence” to my spirit and inner peace. I might have said “negative reaction” or “tendency to dwell on the thoughts”. The reaction I had to that trigger was one that incapacitated me a for while in my Church work, eventually leading to minimal performance in my temporal job as a college teacher, and a seeming inabilty to do much other than passive activities like watch movies. Interestingly though, I still managed to cope by completing a program of study at university, etcetera, still managed to lead my quorum in Church things, although it was on a minimal level — doing only what was immediately necessary, and not proactive. All with deep unhappiness inside during private moments.
Quote:You also mentioned people getting upset at your “character” or condemning your character.
I see what you mean, you’re saying you have to look at the behavior I may have exhibited in that moment, and not necessarily view it as an attack on my character. Behavior IS often isolated and mistakes happen — and then people tend to expand their limited perception to label the individual as having a deep seated character flaw as a result — which isn’t always the case. Viewing their comments that way is far less threatening to one’s self, and probably a more accurate interpretation of the situation.
In the case of the situations above, they objected to the fact that I disagreed with them on a number of issues.
These things have nothing to do with character, and that should help me get past this, but unfortunately, it doesn’t help much.
Quote:Finally, understand and tell your brain that what you’re feeling is NOT a character flaw anymore than being myopic is a character flaw, or hyperopic, or diabetic, or ADHD. It is what it is. We all have flaws and we all make mistakes, thank the Lord, or this world would be boring as hell, but depression has nothing to do with character and everything to do with biology and sociology. It’s also rather common and highly treatable. Research is clear that the best treatment for true major depressive disorder is a combination of medication and CBT. If you have this malady, your brain works differently than most of the rest of us (but not nearly all of the rest of us). If it bothers you enough, seek treatment, which you already have it sounds like.
It’s threatening to admit that you also have a malady or somehow mentally unwell. I went through that the first time I sought counselling 25 years ago. There are times when I think I developed these patterns of thinking through habitually responding to situations by sucking every bit of analysis out of the situation. And so, the label is also additonal reason for self-condemnation.
Quote:Sometimes depression turned outwards looks angry and violent, which is why I asked for more details on your statements about violence because those kinds of actions can really hurt other people so need to be addressed first. Fortunately, depressed people can usually learn to control their anger pretty well.
As I said earlier, there is no violence in this, it was bad choice of words.
Thanks for the additional input, SD. It really helps make the whole picture more clear. I simply would suggest that, with the additional input you provided, I can understand quite well what happened and why. I’m not “justifying” anyone by saying that, but I do think it probably was inevitable – given human nature.
Lack of information / understanding generally leads to conflict of some sort – both internal and interpersonal, and it can be SO hard to separate actions taken out of ignorance (meaning just lack of full understanding) from personal attacks. I have found that most people, inside and outside the Church, don’t engage in
purelypersonal attacks all that often. Generally, those confrontations and conflicts are caused by not understanding the other person – or by an active misunderstanding. Obviously, many times there is a real personality conflict that is the primary driving force – but, even then, often there is an underlying lack of understanding that is an important contributing factor. If there is one thing that has hit me hard this year as a result of my New Year’s Resolution focus on charity (1 Corinthians 13:4-7), it’s that admitting we see through our individual glasses darkly and
looking first for a reason to accept rather than rejectis an incredibly liberating pursuit. I have known that previously and tried to take that approach for a long time, but focusing so intently on each characteristic of charity listed in those verses has deepened my understanding of the principle immensely. SilentDawning wrote:Old-Timer wrote:
Lack of information / understanding generally leads to conflict of some sort – both internal and interpersonal, and it can be SO hard to separate actions taken out of ignorance (meaning just lack of full understanding) from personal attacks. I have found that most people, inside and outside the Church, don’t engage inpurelypersonal attacks all that often. Generally, those confrontations and conflicts are caused by not understanding the other person – or by an active misunderstanding. Obviously, many times there is a real personality conflict that is the primary driving force – but, even then, often there is an underlying lack of understanding that is an important contributing factor.
My intellect tells me that was the root of the problem. It was partly the lack of understanding about my role. As the organizational behavior literature suggests, initiatives among peers, or heads of departments often lead to infighting because they all consider themselves equal in power; there is no formal authority figure to deal with the various tradeoffs and points of disagreement that develop, which causes the team to work together ineffectively. I think if we had a Bishopric member chairing the meeting, things would’ve turned out differently.
One member had complained twice about the direction I was supporting through my delegation to this other team member. It wasn’t an interpersonal issue of any kind, and definitely NOT a sensitive concern. Call it “functional conflict” if you will.
So, recognizing this was a concern for him, and wanting to be a democratic team leader, I raised the issue in front of the group. I called it an “issue”, and proposed a course of action. Well, the person who had raised the objection earlier went off! He got angry and said i was interpreting the situation negatively, as if he was some kind of a hot-head, etcetera because I used the word “issue” rather than the word “agenda item”. I thought, given my tendencies toward personalization, that I’d done something wrong. So, in one of my college classes, I raised this situation for discussion, connecting it to a course objective on communication we were discussing (The Sender Receiver Model). I then took a poll of the class and asked them if they felt the use of the term “issue” in that context was negative.
Guess what? Out of a class of 15, 3 were adamant it was a negative word to use. They said the word “issue” is a word you use when you say “Do you have ISSUES WITH ME????”. The other 2/3 of the class said they saw nothing wrong with the word. In fact one person said “If the person in your group has a problem with the word “issues”, then he’s got ISSUES!!!”. So, words have different meanings for people — some attach emotional overtones that others don’t.
I find myself being very careful now about what words I use around people, not assuming they will read the same meaning into them that the people I work with do. I had a relapse on the word violence earlier, sorry. As a matter of course, it’s much better to use words that are commonly used in conversation and that have neutral emotional overtones.
I’m looking for CBT therapists now … not easy to find within driving distance since I live way out in teh boon-docks… The more energy you lose giving into past issues and into other people (who could probably give a darn less about your feelings or your everyday life) the less time you have to enjoy and make the best of your present life now. The weakness doesn’t completely stop once you “let go” because once you do you still have to deal with the issue of “I can’t believe I let this control and negatively impact my life for so long..” and regret the time consumed by your past actions or others actions.Therapy sounds great. I was pretty depressed for about 4 or 5 months with a LDS faith crisis .. on top of having a newborn baby and a deployed husband. I made myself sick thinking my husband would leave me and our daughter b/c I didn’t believe in the church anymore. Turns out all of my depression was in vain. He accepted me with open arms. Talk about feeling terrible once I realized I didn’t need to be depressed for the first few precious months of my daughters life. It was hard for me to “let go” of the time that I had allowed myself to be a complete drone. But I’ve found that living for and in the present, and it takes time and practice, is the best way to live. Good Luck.
LaLa, part of your depression may have related to the hormonal changes involved with pregnancy and post-pregnancy, though I’m sure you already considered that. Very happy to hear that things are better now. SD, if you want to save on therapy bills, just detail your next confrontation/disagreement/thing that causes you disquietude in a long message on this forum and let the rest of us help you sort it out. You don’t need me to tell you that you are very analytical and probably able to sort out the “issues” in a CBT manner through writing them out on a message board. WRITING about the emotionally traumatic or bad things that happen to you can be significantly therapeutic both emotionally AND physically. You break down, analyze, and detail things so well, that I suspect you’d benefit greatly from this type of therapeutic approach.
I’ve done work in this area (writing and therapy) and it definitely has therapeutic merit. Check out the work by James Pennebaker on writing and therapy, or catharcic writing. Pennebaker used to be at SMU, but I don’t know if he’s still there. Some researchers in New Zealand also found some interesting results with writing in populations of Hepititis B patients. In short, writing about one’s trauma has shown to decrease negative mood (well, negative mood typically increases while and just after you write, and then decreases substantially), increase positive mood, decrease medical visits, and increase immune system response when compared to matched controls writing about trivial things. If you’re interested in more information, I can give it to you.
SD, when you gave more details about the actual conversation, I wondered what would have happened had it gone something like this:
YW leaders: “We think your idea is not practical.”
SD: “Ah, I think you’re just making that up because you don’t really wanna do it.”
YW leaders: “No, it’s the goal, we don’t think it’ll work; it’s not practical.”
SD: “Oh, okay, then you guys come up with the goal.”
Cnsl1 wrote:SD, if you want to save on therapy bills, just detail your next confrontation/disagreement/thing that causes you disquietude in a long message on this forum and let the rest of us help you sort it out.
Cnsl1 makes a good point, and that is part of the purpose of this site, to help support each other and share questions and thoughts for each other, even share experiences.
However, none of us are professionals, only fellow users willing to support. The individual needs to determine the level of help they need. This site can definitely be helpful, but it is not the same as a CBT course.
Only SD can determine what level of support he needs. But great, suggestion, Cnsl1…that writing and therapy approach could be a great option if someone feels that is what they want.
I’m receptive to this, but I have to be on-guard about simply rehashing and reliving the negatives. It has to be with a view to adopting healthy mental discipline habits as they apply to this situation. Hopefully the following represents healthy thinking, or a healthy mental reaction to this situation — I had a list of attitude conditioners listed here, and some of you have responded, but i feel to delete them given their ability to identify the situation. I don’t think this is fair to the people involved…..One attitude conditioner is that I showed Christlike behavior in the situation by not being abrasive, and seeking reconciliation…but negative feelings remain. Quote:I showed Christlike behavior in the way I handled the situation.
I am going to put on my counselor hat for a moment, so please pardon the “directness” of my next question.
Quote:May I suggest very humbly that, while your statement above might be totally correct in that moment (or during that period), it’s not true at this moment?
Part of the difference between “showing Christlike behavior” and “internalizing Christlike characteristics / qualities” is manifested in the aftermath – when there is no longer any outside pressure to continue to behave in a Christlike manner. There is a difference between the way someone acts in the moment and whether or not they forgive someone else after the moment. I’m not sure you’ve forgiven these people, truly and sincerely.
I do not mean that as a criticism in any way, but I do want to share it – as I believe it deals directly with finding a way to let go of the hurt completely. Analysis is important, but so is emotional reconciliation – and sometimes the only way to find such reconciliation is to let go fully of the need to understand and categorize and analyze once it has been accomplished initially. I understand how hard it is to hear someone say, “Just let go, dude” – and I don’t mean to say that in that tone or with apparent lack of understanding. I would like to submit that you understand the entire situation quite well – so it’s time to take the high ground and let go. It’s time to forgive. I don’t have an easy answer for how to do that, but, literally, every second you now spend looking back and thinking about it is a second you don’t have to look and move forward and think about something else.
Quote:May I suggest very humbly that, while your statement above might be totally correct in that moment (or during that period), it’s not true at this moment?
Well, if I may also speak frankly — I think you’re settling into a rather simplistic perspective that isn’t of help to someone with my issues. It’s underlying message is “Why not just let go of it??”. It’s akin to a person who has never been an alcoholic walking up to an alcoholic and saying ” Why can’t you just stop drinking?”. I’ve heard this many many times in my lifetime, so its a shop-worn phrase to me just as “I know the Church is true” is to others who have testimony issues.
I think you’ve convinced me that this thread may not be the place to try to cope with this aspect of my thinking; and that it’s better left in the hands of a CBT therapist who can rely on a deeper set of tools to deal with the problem. Perhaps I’m wrong, but that’s my conclusion.
However, I love this forum, and appreciate the air of respect and compassion demonstrated by people on this forum. It’s truly inspiring, and is a unique place on the Internet. The How To Stay active in the Church essay, although not completely relevant to me (I’m active, and temple recommend holding) created, in a first read, two very important revelations about how to deal with angst in the Church. And I will continue to come back and contribute.
I also feel this forum has helped me feel a deep amount of compassion and love for people who previously made me feel REALLY FRUSTRATED when I was a priesthood leader. People who were lukewarm or not cooperative on higher-commitment iniatives. I realize now, from gaining insights into the minds of people who come to this site that many were probably simply doing their best to hang on given the many historical challenges our religion presents us with. And then, for a priesthood leader to be inwardly judgmental seems entirely wrong to me now. I think this is goign to prepare me to be a much less frustrated and perhaps more charitable priesthood leader at some point in the future. And this experience has provided me with the perspectives I need to assert myself to Stake Leaders who believe that everyone should be as dedicated as they are at this point in their life. Valuable lessons.
I’m also getting to the point where every priesthood leader should have to experience a trial of faith to truly understand how to lead others in the Church — to respect diversity in commitment, in testimony, and gospel coping skills. Everyone’s experiences and attitudes truly have expanded my personal Map of the World.
SilentDawning wrote:I realize now, from gaining insights into the minds of people who come to this site that many were probably simply doing their best to hang on given the many historical challenges our religion presents us with. And then, for a priesthood leader to be inwardly judgmental seems entirely wrong to me now.
First of all, it sounds like you’ve been able to develop some empathy and compassion for others that previously you would have thought those people were just lacking faith by reading thoughts shared on this site. That’s great.
I just thought I’d clarify something from my perspective. I no longer just try to deal with things in church, or grit my teeth and cope with it. I have gone through a phase and came out seeing it so differently, that what used to bother me, no longer bothers me. I’ve had a change of heart and mind, so I perceive the same existing events in a different light…and it has made a huge difference for me internally.
I think it goes along with this great Maori proverb:
Quote:Turn your face to the sun, and the shadows fall behind you.
That isn’t just “getting over it”, it is turning yourself in a new direction so your problems fall behind you.
I don’t know if that was already understood…but I just wanted to mention that from my perspective.
Quote:I just thought I’d clarify something from my perspective. I no longer just try to deal with things in church, or grit my teeth and cope with it. I have gone through a phase and came out seeing it so differently, that what used to bother me, no longer bothers me. I’ve had a change of heart and mind, so I perceive the same existing events in a different light…and it has made a huge difference for me internally.
I’m feeling this right now with respect to the parts of our history that are objectionable. For example, doctrinal statements put forward by early prophets. As soon as you absolve these men of the pressure of being perfect, all of a sudden their claims of strange doctine become interesting theories and not a challenge to one’s faith. It’s a theory just like any other theory — not a challenge to the goodness or blessings of Church membership. He was imperfect just like I’m imperfect.
We don’t teach “Infallibility of the Prophet”, so why demand it from the Church? Certainly, the Church tends to encourage this belief with the blanket statement (I call it a cultural myth) that all priesthood leaders are all inspired in all situations. But as soon as you recognize that prophets are men, far short of the stature of Christ, many things they have said in the past become irrelevant to one’s faith today.
SilentDawning wrote:We don’t teach “Infallibility of the Prophet”, so why demand it from the Church? Certainly, the Church tends to encourage this belief with the blanket statement (I call it a cultural myth) that all priesthood leaders are all inspired in all situations.
But as soon as you recognize that prophets are men, far short of the stature of Christ, many things they have said in the past become irrelevant to one’s faith today.Which means that one DOES NOT have to take the words of local leaders, or even GA as “Truth” or gospel. Just because it gets said over the pulpit, or quoted from the ensign, or stress by the stake presidency doesn’t necessarily make it “the truth.” This is what I was trying to say when I mention that perhaps we need to “let go” of all the preconceived notions of truth and gospel that our culture has handed down from for generations. (example – “it’s never okay to turn down a calling.” or “when you get interviewed at the pealy gates, the first question you will be asked is if you did your home teaching.) Let that stuff go if it is making you miserable (easier said than done, right
You’re right – the culture says so that our prophet and local leaders are speaking for god (whether by my voice or the voice of my servants it is the same) and are always inspired, but so what. We have a brain, we have reason and logic and we have access to the spirit (light of christ) – to help us figure out what is true and what pathway we should treed to find peace in this life and “salvation” after.
Quote:Which means that one DOES NOT have to take the words of local leaders, or even GA as “Truth” or gospel. Just because it gets said over the pulpit, or quoted from the ensign, or stress by the stake presidency doesn’t necessarily make it “the truth.” This is what I was trying to say when I mention that perhaps we need to “let go” of all the preconceived notions of truth and gospel that our culture has handed down from for generations. (example – “it’s never okay to turn down a calling.” or “when you get interviewed at the pealy gates, the first question you will be asked is if you did your home teaching.) Let that stuff go if it is making you miserable (easier said than done, right
You’re right – the culture says so that our prophet and local leaders are speaking for god (whether by my voice or the voice of my servants it is the same) and are always inspired, but so what. We have a brain, we have reason and logic and we have access to the spirit (light of christ) – to help us figure out what is true and what pathway we should treed to find peace in this life and “salvation” after.
But I may still support them for a whole variety of other reasons. For example, because I have a good relationship with the local leader, and want to support him in something important to him. Or the thing they say just makes sense. Or perhaps I disagree, but would like the leader to learn that his idea was not a good one — if they see everyone does it and it STILL doesn’t work, then perhaps they won’t think to expect this of us in the future. There are a whole variety of reasons you might support a local leader even though you don’t necessarily agree with what they said.
By the way, like what you said about our “culture” saying that every word that falls from their mouths is inspired. If you think of many of the things which disturb us as “cultural” values and not absolute truths, then their words suddenly become a lot easier to take.
However, how do you reconcile this with the scripture “Whether by my own voice, or the voice of my servants, it is is the same?”. If you truly believe that scripture, then how can you view everything they say as opinion? This is not a challenge to your position, (which brings a certain amount of peace to the mind, by the way) but simply a question.
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