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I have to teach HP in a few weeks — the topic will be Faith in Jesus Christ. I intend to make the lesson interesting and feeding to me and hopefully others, while also making the HP’s neurons fire, without rocking the boat (a tall order). My plan is to ask thought-provoking questions, worded to make people think, and challenge their thinking. On the other hand, I will offer no divergent opinions that could get me into trouble or hurt others’ faith. I will indicate at the outset I will be using a technique where everyone shares their opinions and no closure is given — each person will have to decide for themself what the take-away is from each question.
Here are some questions I intend to ask.
1. We have examples from other religions where faith has been used to take advantage of people. Well-meaning people with a desire to live a good life are often deceived into believing something which is not true, but do so with their heart in the right place. Given this great potential for misdirection of faith and effort, and the wide margin for error in choosing the right religion, why doesn’t God do this, shown in a quote below for emphasis:
Quote:At an appropriate time in a person’s life, it’s standard operating procedure that the person gets a visit with a heavenly being who describes the Plan or Salvation and the role of Christ, so there is no need for faith. The challenge then shifts getting behind the right principles and living the gospel, rather than a lifelong search for the right Church, and for some a continuing sea of doubt about whether they have chosen the right religion?
Why can it not be this way so there is at least solid knowledge to begin with, and then people can spend their lives choosing to live it or not?
2. Can our faith in the Church as having the fulness of the gospel distract us from our goal of becoming like Christ? Or is it assured that if we live the commandments and participate in the ordinances the Church has given us, we will also achieve the goal of a Christlike character?
Follow-up question — how can we prevent this from happening?
3. Because of our faith that Jesus directs this Church, we claim a divine commission, with all truth in one place, and the straightest path to salvation. We claim that we have the Lord’s plan for happiness. Yet at the same time, we have temporal imperatives like any other earthy organization. How do we reconcile our need for temporal security with our need to act like a spiritual organization? Is there are conflict, or do the two harmonize?
How do you reconcile these two, when for some, this dual role actually hurts their faith?
I welcome other questions that have multiple answers and that make people think….particularly if they challenge existing ways of thinking that are destructive, or further some of the newer ideas from the apostles that have not yet taken root in the local culture (not that my previous two necessarily do that). And they have to be relateable to Faith in Jesus Christ in some way.
Honestly, as just an immediate, gut reaction, I think this has a huge chance of blowing up as structured. I think the overall idea is excellent, and I think it’s a great outline for a discussion in a forum like this, but I’m not sure if the reception will be what you hope in a HPG meeting – and I see a lot of potential for a bad result. I’ll think about it more and get back to you with more constructive input. I really do think there is great potential in the idea.
Ray — I’ve done it before with success. But it’s been in spurts and hit and run questions, not as a focus. Maybe two or three questions spread in between a lot of TBM discusson. In this particular lesson, I will also hit the basic concepts of the atonement so as not to get lambasted for deviating from the basics and the manual too much. I’m very conscious and aware of the attitudes that prevail and what people might say, so I couch my statements in such language so as not to inflame…. Even though there is almost nothing this forum doesnt’ know about me personally now (I have been nakedly honest about just about everything in my heart and my weaknesses as it relates to the Church and the Gospel), the SD you see here is not what I portray in my local community. People who care too much what others think don’t allow that in person:)
😆 😳 😳 So, I can handle it….I honestly don’t believe it’ll blow up….and remember, I teach for a living, pushing 18 years full-time now. I don’t know much, but I can rock the boat without sinking the ship….
I think your questions are not open ended enough. They are still too much like a statement in the form of a question. That’s what will get you in trouble. People will pick up on your intent. I’m not suggesting you try to hide your statement better. I’m saying perhaps it would work better to have less attachment to a direction in the answers. SilentDawning wrote:1. We have examples from other religions where faith has been used to take advantage of people. Well-meaning people with a desire to live a good life are often deceived into believing something which is not true, but do so with their heart in the right place. Given this great potential for misdirection of faith and effort, and the wide margin for error in choosing the right religion, why doesn’t God do this
You won’t be able to ask this question without sending out the vibe of your own autobiographical angst. Been there and tried that many times. You will have people in class insist that you can only have faith in something that is true. This might not go the direction you want. I also think the first part of the question communicates a mistrust of religion. That might set off the subconscious alarm bells. I would re-phrase the question like this:
“If understanding the Gospel of Jesus Christ correctly and receiving the ordinances is so important in this life to our eternal progression, why doesn’t God just send a heavenly messenger to each of us like in this example (give your example)?
That question is more open ended and more free of intent. It will get people talking.
SilentDawning wrote:2. Can our faith in the Church as having the fulness of the gospel distract us from our goal of becoming like Christ? Or is it assured that if we live the commandments and participate in the ordinances the Church has given us, we will also achieve the goal of a Christlike character?
I think you should bring more authority into this question. I get it, but it’s too philosophical the way it’s worded.
Suggested re-phrasing:
The Pharisee in the New Testament were used as an example by the Savior in many of his teachings. They were so focused on lists of rules they lost track of the message of the Gospel. How can we avoid this same trap in our day?
SilentDawning wrote:3. Because of our faith that Jesus directs this Church, we claim a divine commission, with all truth in one place, and the straightest path to salvation. We claim that we have the Lord’s plan for happiness. Yet at the same time, we have temporal imperatives like any other earthy organization.
How do we reconcile our need for temporal security with our need to act like a spiritual organization?Is there are conflict, or do the two harmonize? How do you reconcile these two, when
for some, this dual role actually hurts their faith?The underlined portions will set off angst alarm bells. Faith in the Church can not harm you, ever
😈 And the Church never “acts” like a spiritual organization, itISa spiritual organization. I am saying you should not challenge those two ideas openly and directly as a teacher in the class. You are making statements in the form of a question. It’s too autobiographical, and people will sense your tension. It won’t come across as a good, peaceful question. You have to throw the group soft balls. Quote:I think your questions are not open ended enough. They are still too much like a statement in the form of a question. That’s what will get you in trouble. People will pick up on your intent. I’m not suggesting you try to hide your statement better. I’m saying perhaps it would work better to have less attachment to a direction in the answers.
“If understanding the Gospel of Jesus Christ correctly and receiving the ordinances is so important in this life to our eternal progression, why doesn’t God just send a heavenly messenger to each of us like in this example (give your example)?
That question is more open ended and more free of intent. It will get people talking.
Good one. I did test this one on a TBM person during a pensive moment, and it didnt’ set off alarm bells, but I like your wording.
Quote:I think you should bring more authority into this question. I get it, but it’s too philosophical the way it’s worded.
Suggested re-phrasing:
The Pharisee in the New Testament were used as an example by the Savior in many of his teachings. They were so focused on lists of rules they lost track of the message of the Gospel. How can we avoid this same trap in our day?
I like this one too.
Regarding number 3.
Quote:The underlined portions will set off angst alarm bells. Faith in the Church can not harm you, ever And the Church never “acts” like a spiritual organization, it IS a spiritual organization. I am saying you should not challenge those two ideas openly and directly as a teacher in the class. You are making statements in the form of a question. It’s too autobiographical, and people will sense your tension. It won’t come across as a good, peaceful question. You have to throw the group soft balls.
You might be right on this one. First I have trouble attaching it to faith in Jesus Christ, and second, I wasn’t happy with the wording. I might leave this one alone, or trying something risky I’m not comfortable sharing here.
SD, how about just reading parts of the talk by Pres. Uchtdof about how we tend in the Church to build hedges about the law of love? I think just reading it and asking what examples people can think of that fit “what a modern apostle has told us” would accomplish the same thing without any possible negative connotations. I would have some examples of things that come to my mind when I read it, but I wouldn’t lead with them. I’d ask the question of everyone else and only insert mine if some dead time occurred. You know one of the best questions to make people squirm is this.. Who is Jesus Christ?
After they give the standard text book Son of God, Savior of mankind, ect. answers…It’s always fun to ask no…who is Jesus Christ to you?
People will shut up. Some will give some sort of um um um answer, but every once in a while you’ll get a real conversion testimony out of it.
I still think it’s fun to do…of course I like to watch the squirming.
:angel: Arwen — I’m not sure I would like to make them squirm, but at least think. I don’t mind if they are a bit uncomfortable with the question, without being offended by it. Old-Timer wrote:SD, how about just reading parts of the talk by Pres. Uchtdof about how we tend in the Church to build hedges about the law of love? I think just reading it and asking what examples people can think of that fit “what a modern apostle has told us” would accomplish the same thing without any possible negative connotations. I would have some examples of things that come to my mind when I read it, but I wouldn’t lead with them. I’d ask the question of everyone else and only insert mine if some dead time occurred.
I think this is a good suggestion. I will consider this one. Anything I can say that is consistent with Apostles, and something that has not yet permeated our Church culture like it should have is welcome. I’m not out to detract from people’s faith, but I would like to redirect it into healthier paths that don’t cause an uproar.
Here’s a brainstorming list I came up with if I were teaching the lesson. Some other open-ended, mildly edgy, possible conversation starters RE: Faith in Jesus Christ. -How can we have faith and trust in someone we have never seen or talked to?
-In what ways have you seen and talked to your Savior, without having lived during the scripture times he ministered on the earth?
-What are the differences between having faith in Jesus Christ and knowing Jesus Christ? Are there differences?
-What does it mean to you in your life to have faith in Jesus Christ?
-How should faith in Jesus Christ transform our moral qualities and our actions?
-Based on the stories of Christ’s life in the Gospels, it seems to me like He spent a lot of time hanging out with and ministering to people who lived on the fringes of society — the sick, the spiritually wounded, outcasts, untouchables, sinners and people who didn’t follow the norms of their society. Do we do a good job of this today? Could we be more welcoming? How can our faith in Jesus Christ help us overcome our possible reluctance towards ministering to these people in His church today? [ok, this one is a little autobiographical and leading on my part, hehe]
How about: Quote:“I have a friend who mentioned in a HPG lesson recently that he is concerned about how many of our gatherings and activities focus on socializing among ourselves and how few of them actually focus on serving and helping others – especially those who are rejected and despised by others. I’ve thought about that, and if pure religion is “visiting the widows and the fatherless”, how are we doing in our own ward with living pure religion?”
Yeah, I know that’s an autobiographical reference on my part, but it’s a way to pose the question in a way that is reflective and not oppositional in any way.
If the conversation is initiated with a quote from Pres. Uchtdorf and followed by something “a friend” said . . .
These are good thoughts — and even if they are autobiographical, I can’t see it very clearly. I think these questions are only autobiographical if you know the person’s deep issues from prolonged posting on this discussion forum. The gen pub in the lesson wouldn’t have a clue… One thing that amazes me though is that these questions don’t have a lot of edge on them, in my view.
One Socratic technique I have used in the past is to ask a question, get the Standard Answer, and then push the standard standard answer into a deeper layer, adding counterpoint. It makes people uncomfortable until someone comes out with a resolution. They seem to know by my demeanor that I am playing devil’s advocate and just being a teacher, so I have never been lambasted using this technique (so far). It often leads to long silence and then a barrage of answers.
I read the lesson again today, and had a hard time with it (I give it on Sunday apparently). I have some questions that came to mind when I read it:
1. The manual indicates that miracles, healings, and visitations from heavenly messengers follow from faith in Jesus Christ. As the scriptures are replete with such experiences, and we talk about these scriptural stories openly, why then, do we discourage discussion about such events that happen in our day? Would not such sharing of spiritual experiences like these actually increase the faith of others?
They will likely say that it’s because the experiences are sacred…
I could reply:
“But are not the scriptural stories also sacred? Why then are such sacred experiences acceptable to talk about in the scriptures, but are too sacred to talk about when they happen in modern times?”
Again, I provide no closure — I let everyone share what they think, and then move on. I did this even when I wasn’t on the STayLDS side of the fence. This HP Group will no doubt have answers to bring closure. This has always bothered me, that we harp on the miracles in the scriptures, but discourage such discussion in modern times….
2. Another question….that I had when reading the lesson…
“The lesson has talked about the need for Faith in Christ for salvation. Then, moves on to talking about how faith can lead to achieving great things. Is the achievement of great things dependent on Faith in Christ? Or can it be dependent upon some other kind faith???
They will likely say that if it’s not true, it’s not faith (which for me is a hopelessly circular argument which has always bothered me, but I won’t say that. It’s like the traditional Christians who say that if you don’t do good works, you aren’t saved, but that good works aren’t necessary for salvation == convoluted and self-reinforcing).
I reply:
“But we have multiple definitions — one says faith is hope in things which are unseen, but which are true. But then Joseph Smith said that faith is simply “mental exertion”. Are these different kinds of faith? Or are they complementary? How do you reconcile these two definitions? One that indicates faith is based on truth, the other indicates it’s simply mental exertion?”
[my belief is that faith is much broader than in things that are true. Call belief in Jim Jones “People’s Temple” faith, or call it being decieved, the people went through the mental act of believing, and acted on it. They also believed it was true at some point…so from my perspective, they had faith. To hold a narrow definition of faith as the object of belief being true, when truth is so hard to verify, makes no sense to me anymore. In my view, Faith is Belief in something you can’t see, whether true or not. Now, I won’t say this, but i think the mental exertion definition of Joseph Smith strengthens my case.
It could be interesting to see how these seasons HP’s reconcile it.
Also, if they ask my opinion, I intend to give a President Hinckley answer — and say “I don’t know…” I might even follow it up with a sincere — “That’s why I’m putting it to this group of seasoned men, as this is an question I’ve never been able to answer for myself.”
Maybe you get my drift…]
Fwiw, the best “edges” don’t come from quotes. They come from the person who presents the quotes and how the quotes are applied. The best edges also cut “sharply” (meaning “precisely”), like a scalpel – not like a hammer and a butter knife.
There’s a reason surrogated edges aren’t used with surgical instruments – why tools are used that can cut smoothly rather than in a way that tears.
Some of the deepest cuts can be administered gently when surgical tools are used skillfully – but they also can be deadly if there isn’t a band-aid or other reparative device handy that can be applied immediately.
I know we’re talking in analogies here, but I prefer the gentler, more precise, less “invasive” cuts in cases like local HPG lessons than those that are more radical. In a Stake Leadership Meeting, otoh . . . I don’t mind using a blunter instrument, since sometimes a sledgehammer really is better than a scalpel.
Hi SD, Your topic is “FAITH in Jesus Christ.” Since everyone interprets Jesus differently & we cannot have a relationship with someone we don’t “relate to” (we pray to Heavenly Father not Jesus) & we are commanded to have no other gods before God, & although Jesus is a fitting personification of spirituality, only we can save us from our thoughts (the root of sin)… so…focus on FAITH.
1. What is faith to you?
2. Is faith blindly accepting, or is it knowing the facts… or a combination of both? (Heb 11:1 “faith is the substance of things hoped for the evidence of things not seen.”)
3. Do we do anything without faith? (D&C 8:10 “without faith you can do nothing” … 2 Cor 5:7 “we walk by faith not by sight”)
4. Do we always have hope & faith (“heart”) in what is best in the eternal picture? (Matt 6:21 “where your treasure is there your heart [faith] will be also.”)
5. How does faith relate to the scripture instruction to “pray always”? (To always be hoping & striving for God’s will – through trial & error.)
6. How did Jesus show faith & teach about faith?
7. Considering “faith without works is dead” & love is the greatest commandment, do faith & love work together? If so, how?
(I’d say… Love is hoping & striving for what is best, through trial & error- active faith.)
“Faith is the first great governing principle which has power, dominion, and authority over all things.”-Joseph Smith I hope it goes well!
Well, I taught my lesson today. I actually had trouble preparing beyond writing here. I couldn’t bring myself to do it. My wife woke me up with 15 minutes to spare to get to Church. So, I went with the two questions I originally posted here — the ones I thought Ray and Brian might have thought were a bit too autobiographical or disruptive – realizing I was taking a risk.
Surprisingly, those two questions took the entire time up after I asked for a basic definition of faith. Our HC told me he had never seen a HP group so engaged with the topic, which surprised me — and he said it right in the middle of the lesson out of the blue.
After having everyone share their definition of faith, I asked the question about the angel. I commented on how faith can be abused — that designing men can prey on people’s lack of knowledge in this life about what is true, and what is not. How this can often lead well-meaning people into paths they are not true, are self-serving, taking their economic security, or requiring huge sacrifices that may well be for naught etcetera. So I asked — why don’t we get a visitation from an angel so we know without a shadow of the doubt what the truth was, making life simply a challenge of aligning our actions with the will of God? This would stop all the confusion people have, the disagreeing and contradicting each other, the talking wrong paths, the getting involved in destructive cults — etcetera. Why hasn’t God structured our earthly life this way?
I loved it because they were all really quiet when I asked that question — quiet for quite some time. And I apply the principle of “whoever speaks first loses” when this happens. During the quiet moment I didn’t know if I was going to be called out as apostate or making a reference to the Church. But almost everyone in the room (14 of 16 of them) commented — indicating a variety of things:
Here they are — the lack of pure knowledge implies lack of strict accountability, struggling for knowledge makes it more permanent after it is attained, everyone has eternity to figure out the truth, second chances in the next life, and that judgment will be fair in spite of the confusion. Someone said that it’s Satan’s plan if you give pure knowledge, as it destroys accountability. I disagreed with that, indicating that you still have a choice to obey or not after sure knowledge is given. Half of them nodded when i said that….
And then, I asked the question about evil people who have achieved great, but evil things with JS’s mental exertion definition of faith (I was thinking about Nazi Germany when I said that, but didn’t reference it – one of the brethren in the quorum is German, plus Nazi references NEVER go over well in most contexts) — challenging the assumption that faith must be in things that are true, to be faith. Can you have faith in something false and still move a mountain with the faith the size of a mustard seed? They were quiet for a long time about that and finally, two of them concluded that yes, it’s faith — that this flies in the face of the scripture, but taken with JS’s definition of “mental exertion” both are faith. I was glad they were able to recognize the limitation of the scripture!!!! I got no flak whatoever on that one!!
.
We ran out of time at this point — so I reconciled the mental exertion point of view with the “faith in things that are true” concept — postulating the mental exertion alone is relying on the arm of flesh, and although huge evil can be accomplished with mental exertion, it’s only with faith in God that such mental exertion gives you access to miracles.
The best part was at the end, when the HPGL came up to me and thanked me again for a good lesson. I told him I had vetted my questions with some strong believers online, just to see if the questions were not too apostate. He thought that was interesting. And then I told him, that yes, it was confirmed that they were in fact apostate, so I just HAD to use them…..Sorry, I had to go for the cheap laugh on that one….He knew I was kidding, and laughed pretty hard — and didn’t ask what the online site was…
It sounds like it was a great lesson. Thanks for the update. I’m really glad your group was able to handle it as presented. I hate to say, “I told you so,” (especially since I was wrong about the outcome with those exact questions
😳 ) but it also confirms that most people in the Church who have been around forever and thought a lot about things can handle deep, thought-provoking lessons that make them think – not in all congregations, obviously, but in many.Again, thanks for the report.
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