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Old-Timer wrote:
My comments were from the point of view of trying to talk with someone who takes the story literally.
I am interested in hearing more of this side of the discussion. What insights would you share in SS? How would you respond to a member who questioned the idea that God would command the killing in a Sunday School setting?
In that setting or with someone who was asking, I probably would focus on three things: 1) Nephi didn’t accept immediately the “constraining” he felt to kill Laban – unlike Abraham and Isaac. Nephi said, “Woah, I can’t do that,” whereas Abraham said, “Sure. Let’s go do this.”
That actually is important to me, since it showed that he recognized the severity of what he was feeling and didn’t take it lightly. Whether or not someone agrees with what he did, he wasn’t callous about the action.
2) Nephi took the time to construct a fairly good argument for why he should follow what he felt he needed to do.
That is similar to the first point, but it also is important to me that he tried to follow his heart (what he felt) AND his mind (what he thought). He wasn’t acting simply on his feelings alone – again, unlike Abraham and Isaac. Abraham said, “God commanded it, so that’s all there is to it,” while Nephi said, “Why would God command such a thing, and how can I understand it in a way that allows me to do it?”
3) I think, based on the totality of the record, killing Laban haunted Nephi until the day he died – especially after seeing a vision of his people dwindling in unbelief (which, in a way, negated his final justification for killing Laban).
I think he questioned his prompting at that point, knowing later it wouldn’t end how he assumed it would end when he did it.
If he questioned it, I think it’s okay for us to question it– and to consider other lessons than that killing in the name of God is okay if you feel like you are being commanded to do so. I always thought what Nibbler mentioned: “Protip: take the clothes off the drunk man before beheading him and then wearing his clothes!” That’s just common sense. I think I heard one time there was an apocryphal story very similar to this one, whatever that is worth. I do have a hard time with the idea that God would ever command a murder. I have a hard time with the God of the old testament so I guess it’s the same thing. As Hawk thinks 132 should have stayed burnt I say the OT should stay fulfilled. In context, I also like to point out that Nephi’s time was the OT time – so the stories prior to 3 Nephi ought to be evaluated in that light. Frankly, that solves a LOT of issues, including the racial statements. They fit perfectly into that time period and the Old Testament itself.
Old-Timer wrote:In context, I also like to point out that Nephi’s time was the OT time – so the stories prior to 3 Nephi ought to be evaluated in that light.
Frankly, that solves a LOT of issues, including the racial statements. They fit perfectly into that time period and the Old Testament itself.
That’s a good point. It also raises the question, why is there such a seeming difference between the God of the Old Testament and the God of the New? That may really be the question at the heart of this issue.
I also tend to see the Lehite family as a very rogue group. The whole plates experience, to me, demonstrates this – after the guys return home — Lehi builds and alter and offers sacrifice. On the first read through you don’t flinch, but a few verses later Lehi tells what tribe they are from – like it’s a new discovery. And that tribe is not the Levite tribe – the only authorized group for sacrifice. It also appears, to me, that Lehi has never really read scripture or listened to the family history. So is Lehi just a go along practicer, is he a believer by default, or what. Moses murdered and became a prophet, so who am I to assume I understand Nephi or his family.
Quote:Why is there such a seeming difference between the God of the Old Testament and the God of the New?
Jesus taught, You have heard it said . . . but I say . . .”
Religious understanding and teachings evolved, due to the influence of a radical revolutionary and his followers.
Having said that, there isn’t much difference between the God of the Old Testament and the God of the Crusades – or the God of 9/11 – or the God of the tortured “detainees”. There is a lot of power in the concept of an apostasy cycle – and the idea that there will be bitter fruit in the vineyard / orchard right up until the end of time. I think history tells us that we are prone to relapse toward Old Testament ideology and that it takes conscious effort to embrace and actually practice New Testament theology.
Unknown wrote:If, for a moment, we can ignore the killing aspect of the story, perhaps one lesson is that while we live by rules, there are exceptions to the rules.
Yes…I think this.I think your original post is interesting too…how when we are taught stories with morals from when we’re young…it doesn’t shock us. Sure…Nephi killed the man, but Nephi was good. We are OK with that. But then we find out Joseph Smith looked into a hat instead of translating characters on a metal sheet…and we think he is bad or a liar. When we grow up, it is wise for us to question things we were inoculated from as kids, not in anger or distrust, but in maturing and growing our thinking.
Quote:12 And it came to pass that the Spirit said unto me again: Slay him, for the Lord hath delivered him into thy hands;
13 Behold the Lord slayeth the wicked to bring forth his righteous purposes. It is better that one man should perish than that a nation should dwindle and perish in unbelief.
…and yet…a nation dwindled and perished in unbelief. So…what was the purpose of killing Laban? Especially since we have Book of Mormon prophets talking with God and teaching them. What was so critical about those Brass Plates that couldn’t have been revealed to the prophets other ways?
I guess the stories don’t need to make total sense. Just like allegories or metaphors, they are there to teach us something and I don’t need to look beyond the mark, but accept the teachings for what they are.
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