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At the close of the last session of general conference Russell Nelson asked people to answer a few questions to help them prepare for the upcoming, unique conference that will take place in a few weeks. I’ve heard the word “historic” being tossed around quite a lot when people refer to the upcoming conference. I wouldn’t get too excited… Nelson started off his closing remarks from last conference with, “…as we come to the end of this historic conference…” so I think “historic” just means, “it happened.”
:angel: Anyway, here are the questions:
How would my life be different if my knowledge gained from the Book of Mormon were suddenly taken away?
How have the events that followed the First Vision made a difference for me and my loved ones?
I’ve lost count of how many times those questions have been repeated here, especially recently (including yesterday in both SM and PH). Believe it or not, I have given these questions some thought. However, I don’t have definitive answers for either.
Quote:How would my life be different if my knowledge gained from the Book of Mormon were suddenly taken away?
My problem here is that I can’t say I specifically gained any knowledge from the BoM. I don’t know that there are any principles or knowledge contained in the BoM that are not contained in the Bible. Maybe there are and I haven’t learned them yet because I admittedly don’t read the BoM every day (which was also reiterated in both meetings yesterday). I have been following along with Come Follow Me, but I can’t say that I’ve learned anything I didn’t already know yet. (Have I mentioned that I really like the Maxwell Institute Study edition?) My other issue with this question is that knowledge can’t be taken away. Yes, people can and do forget things and I’ve likely forgotten more than I know but how can any knowledge I have from scripture in general or the BoM specifically be taken away and if it were, how the hell should I know how my life would be different? I’d probably have about 10% more money and more free time on Sundays. (I’m actively resisting the urge to be extremely cynical at this point.)
Quote:How have the events that followed the First Vision made a difference for me and my loved ones?
My wife and I are both converts and none of our families (except her inactive mother) are members. If the formation of the church can be traced back to the FV (and I don’t think that was Joseph’s intent nor do I believe he traced back to then) then I suppose my wife and I being converted, eventually meeting and marrying, and having children made a difference for me and my nuclear family loved ones (I love my Mom and siblings who are not members as well) because we are members of the church, some have served missions, etc. Might we have been active in some other church were it not for our conversion? I think it highly likely.My cynicism knob is probably turned a few notches higher. I do understand that this was not the intent of the questions, but it’s hard for me to see past the manipulative aspects of those sorts of questions. That aside:
Quote:How would my life be different if my knowledge gained from the Book of Mormon were suddenly taken away?
Perhaps the harder of the two to answer. I honestly don’t know. I don’t think it would be that different. Maybe “it came to pass…” wouldn’t be a thing. The joke about reading the Book of Mormon and running out of steam during 2 Nephi, then starting the Book or Mormon over from the beginning just to fall victim to 2 Nephi again wouldn’t be a thing. We’d probably have a goal to read the NT 15 times per year.
The BoM has some good stuff in it, but my own personal CliffsNotes of the BoM would probably be about two pages long.
Quote:How have the events that followed the First Vision made a difference for me and my loved ones?
I have a stronger opinion with this one. Joseph Smith’s vision was just that,
Joseph‘s vision. It was a vision meant for Joseph and I should be more concerned with my own visions. Traditionally we’ve taught the first vision as being this thing that’s used to establish the authority of the church. What helps me live a more Christlike life? A church that preaches its authority or a church that has no authority but preaches Christlike principles?
I have heard these questions in my neck of the woods as well. I believe that they are intended to elicit great gratitude. The thinking is that without the BoM and the FV we would not be sealed to our families, nor have any saving ordinances, and would be (at least temporally) shut out from the celestial kingdom. We would be left to our own devices without prophetic leadership or direction in our lives. nibbler wrote:
I have a stronger opinion with this one. Joseph Smith’s vision was just that,Joseph‘s vision. It was a vision meant for Joseph and I should be more concerned with my own visions. I’m pretty sure this is what Joseph thought too. He didn’t talk about the vision very often and hardly any of the early members of the church knew about it. He believed what made him a prophet began with the visitations of Moroni. Bushman and Givens, among others, make this abundantly clear.
Roy wrote:
I have heard these questions in my neck of the woods as well. I believe that they are intended to elicit great gratitude. The thinking is that without the BoM and the FV we would not be sealed to our families, nor have any saving ordinances, and would be (at least temporally) shut out from the celestial kingdom. We would be left to our own devices without prophetic leadership or direction in our lives.
I agree with you Roy, and this message was driven home yesterday in our Joseph Smith/Book of Mormon centered SM. But is that really how God works?nibbler wrote:
At the close of the last session of general conference Russell Nelson asked people to answer a few questions to help them prepare for the upcoming, unique conference that will take place in a few weeks.I’ve heard the word “historic” being tossed around quite a lot when people refer to the upcoming conference. I wouldn’t get too excited… Nelson started off his closing remarks from last conference with, “…as we come to the end of this historic conference…” so I think “historic” just means, “it happened.”
:angel: Anyway, here are the questions:
How would my life be different if my knowledge gained from the Book of Mormon were suddenly taken away?
How have the events that followed the First Vision made a difference for me and my loved ones?
Unfortunately, my responses aren’t really faith promoting but they are honest.
My life wouldn’t be much different. minus not being a mormon, which meant drinking coffee and avoiding pressures from the mormon culture. After studying the Bible for two semesters, I’ve come to the opinion that if the Bible has been modified so many times and lost it’s authenticity, who knows how impure the BOM truly is?
Likewise, the story of the first vision hasn’t really changed my life or made a difference, especially after learning Joseph rewrote the first vision between 4-8 times with different characters involved. And his historic inconsistency with who and when he shared his story around bothers me too.
So, I guess im not really prepared for this conference?
nibbler wrote:
My cynicism knob is probably turned a few notches higher.I do understand that this was not the intent of the questions, but it’s hard for me to see past the manipulative aspects of those sorts of questions. That aside:
Quote:How would my life be different if my knowledge gained from the Book of Mormon were suddenly taken away?
Perhaps the harder of the two to answer. I honestly don’t know. I don’t think it would be that different. Maybe “it came to pass…” wouldn’t be a thing. The joke about reading the Book of Mormon and running out of steam during 2 Nephi, then starting the Book or Mormon over from the beginning just to fall victim to 2 Nephi again wouldn’t be a thing. We’d probably have a goal to read the NT 15 times per year.
The BoM has some good stuff in it, but my own personal CliffsNotes of the BoM would probably be about two pages long.
Quote:How have the events that followed the First Vision made a difference for me and my loved ones?
I have a stronger opinion with this one. Joseph Smith’s vision was just that,
Joseph‘s vision. It was a vision meant for Joseph and I should be more concerned with my own visions. Traditionally we’ve taught the first vision as being this thing that’s used to establish the authority of the church. What helps me live a more Christlike life? A church that preaches its authority or a church that has no authority but preaches Christlike principles?
I’d hate to say I agree and think you hit the nail on the head with both. Why should the church’s Book of Mormon or first vision be the reason to be a good person, worship Christ or otherwise live in the world? Having grown up in the church and only recently given up on so much of what my life has revolved around, I must say that I am convinced the church thrives off of people having a testimony in it’s validity of authority than anything else. After all, if you can’t convince people you are powerful and offer something they should want, you won’t get anywhere.
I love that you point out his vision was just that, his vision. We are DISCOURAGED from sharing our visions and promptings at church, yet we require everyone who claims membership to believe that his vision happened and was true. I don’t get it.
Roy wrote:
I have heard these questions in my neck of the woods as well. I believe that they are intended to elicit great gratitude. The thinking is that without the BoM and the FV we would not be sealed to our families, nor have any saving ordinances, and would be (at least temporally) shut out from the celestial kingdom. We would be left to our own devices without prophetic leadership or direction in our lives.
I don’t know where in the BOM it talks about sealings? Even if it did, why does it matter what the BOM says? Can’t God enable these blessings without the need for a book? Why would he shut us off from the C Kingdom like that? I’ve read this before and have even shared this view before that I wouldn’t want to be with, return to or live along side a God that requires so much that so many don’t get access to. What’s the point of the atonement? What’s the point of the spirit world, if none of that matters because without the BOM and first vision we won’t “make it”?
Frankly, the questions are meaningless to me – so I don’t think about them. If they are changed directly to focus on my heritage within the LDS Church, it would be different. There are quite a few things I count as real, valuable blessings from that heritage.
grobert93 wrote:
I don’t know where in the BOM it talks about sealings? Even if it did, why does it matter what the BOM says? Can’t God enable these blessings without the need for a book? Why would he shut us off from the C Kingdom like that? I’ve read this before and have even shared this view before that I wouldn’t want to be with, return to or live along side a God that requires so much that so many don’t get access to. What’s the point of the atonement? What’s the point of the spirit world, if none of that matters because without the BOM and first vision we won’t “make it”?
Neither the BoM nor the FV talk about sealings. I am of the opinion from the way these questions are framed that the implication is that if we did not have the BoM or FV then we would not have the LDS church. Now imagine your live without the LDS church and without everything good that might have come from the church. For example I met my wife at BYU while I was attending there for a summer on a Spanish language program for return missionaries. If I were not a member of this church it would be highly unlikely that we would meet and fall in love.
Going down the rabbit hole a little further my parents would likely not have met without their mutual involvement in the church. In not for the BoM and the FV, would I cease to exist?!?!
😮 😮 😮 In asking myself these questions, would it be appropriate to include my meeting and falling in love with my wife as “events that followed the first vision?” Maybe, maybe not. It depends on how you define or limit the question. I suppose the invention of cars, telephones, and computers also followed the first vision but that is clearly not the intent of the question.
A few years ago we had a GA at stake conference who was sort of playing fast and loose in the adult session, asking questions, calling people up front, etc. He asked if there were any recent converts there and a couple hands went. He called on them up. One was a guy I knew and his background was that he had met with the missionaries for months (maybe even a year) before being baptized and he actually worked as a lay youth pastor of some sort with the Catholic Church. Being baptized meant he had to change jobs, which he did taking a pay cut. He also moved and ended up in a neighboring ward. Before his conversion he was otherwise a devout Catholic. It was clear the GA was not given any background on either of them. So up he comes and he’s second, deferring to a lady. The GA asked her a couple softball questions that I don’t recall, but not the question he asked our Catholic convert. I don’t recall the exact wording but the gist of the question was “Aren’t you so much happier having the gospel of Jesus Christ in your life?” Our friend, caught off guard a bit, answered that he had had the gospel and the Savior in his life for many years. This caught the GA off balance and he attempted a follow up of something like “But aren’t you much happier now?” to which our friend gave a sort of “meh” answer (I think he actually said “not really”). He was quickly dismissed and the subject abruptly changed. So, going along with what Roy is saying, I agree – the questions do seem to be framed so that the answer is that you would be extremely unhappy without “the gospel” but what many members, including GAs, don’t see to understand is that 1) we have no monopoly on the gospel and 2) there are billions of happy people who are not members of TCoJCoLDS.
Roy wrote:
grobert93 wrote:
I don’t know where in the BOM it talks about sealings? Even if it did, why does it matter what the BOM says? Can’t God enable these blessings without the need for a book? Why would he shut us off from the C Kingdom like that? I’ve read this before and have even shared this view before that I wouldn’t want to be with, return to or live along side a God that requires so much that so many don’t get access to. What’s the point of the atonement? What’s the point of the spirit world, if none of that matters because without the BOM and first vision we won’t “make it”?
Neither the BoM nor the FV talk about sealings. I am of the opinion from the way these questions are framed that the implication is that if we did not have the BoM or FV then we would not have the LDS church. Now imagine your live without the LDS church and without everything good that might have come from the church. For example I met my wife at BYU while I was attending there for a summer on a Spanish language program for return missionaries. If I were not a member of this church it would be highly unlikely that we would meet and fall in love.
Going down the rabbit hole a little further my parents would likely not have met without their mutual involvement in the church. In not for the BoM and the FV, would I cease to exist?!?!
😮 😮 😮 In asking myself these questions, would it be appropriate to include my meeting and falling in love with my wife as “events that followed the first vision?” Maybe, maybe not. It depends on how you define or limit the question. I suppose the invention of cars, telephones, and computers also followed the first vision but that is clearly not the intent of the question.
Ah, so it’s the “if I pray and my prayer is answered that’s proof God is real, loves me, and made sure my prayer was met.” Story. I love how the church depends on so much credit to survive. It’s true, if it wasn’t for BYUI I wouldn’t have met my wife either, at least that’s what the church will have me think. who knows, life is strange.
I think the church should be focused less on “here’s proof we are the best, because if x y and z” and more “we teach ways to become like Jesus, here’s how you can be like Jesus too!”.
DarkJedi wrote:
A few years ago we had a GA at stake conference who was sort of playing fast and loose in the adult session, asking questions, calling people up front, etc. He asked if there were any recent converts there and a couple hands went. He called on them up. One was a guy I knew and his background was that he had met with the missionaries for months (maybe even a year) before being baptized and he actually worked as a lay youth pastor of some sort with the Catholic Church. Being baptized meant he had to change jobs, which he did taking a pay cut. He also moved and ended up in a neighboring ward. Before his conversion he was otherwise a devout Catholic. It was clear the GA was not given any background on either of them. So up he comes and he’s second, deferring to a lady. The GA asked her a couple softball questions that I don’t recall, but not the question he asked our Catholic convert. I don’t recall the exact wording but the gist of the question was “Aren’t you so much happier having the gospel of Jesus Christ in your life?” Our friend, caught off guard a bit, answered that he had had the gospel and the Savior in his life for many years. This caught the GA off balance and he attempted a follow up of something like “But aren’t you much happier now?” to which our friend gave a sort of “meh” answer (I think he actually said “not really”). He was quickly dismissed and the subject abruptly changed.So, going along with what Roy is saying, I agree – the questions do seem to be framed so that the answer is that you would be extremely unhappy without “the gospel” but what many members, including GAs, don’t see to understand is that 1) we have no monopoly on the gospel and 2) there are billions of happy people who are not members of TCoJCoLDS.
Ah, glad our inspired GA was able to discern the thoughts and history of the convert. Hilarious. I’m sure many members considered that convert disrespectful toward the GA and may have even corrected him after for being so “rude”. Makes me wonder why the convert even joined?
grobert93 wrote:
Ah, glad our inspired GA was able to discern the thoughts and history of the convert. Hilarious. I’m sure many members considered that convert disrespectful toward the GA and may have even corrected him after for being so “rude”. Makes me wonder why the convert even joined?
I think the short answer is because he believes the church is “true.” Again, I know him but not super well, but I think he found something in the church that he was not finding in Catholicism. As a former Catholic I can relate – the gospel of Jesus Christ is the same, but I really don’t get the God without body, parts or passions thing and the idea that unbaptized people of any age go to hell (infants included) really doesn’t jive with what I understand about God.
I reckon there were judgemental people, I am not aware anyone said anything. I was having a hard time holding it in, honestly – I did almost laugh out loud. FWIW, this guy is still active but he’s not an every Sunday attender. He has had some difficulty totally shedding Catholic dogma.
Some enterprising film student should do a short film based on these questions. It could start with a young person pondering the questions before falling asleep and having a dream about a dystopian nightmare where people are angry and fight each other for toilet paper. 😆 😆 😆 Roy wrote:
Some enterprising film student should do a short film based on these questions. It could start with a young person pondering the questions before falling asleep and having a dream about a dystopian nightmare where people are angry and fight each other for toilet paper.😆 😆 😆
Make sure it’s in the style of a 1980s seminary video too.
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