New and seeking advice!

[Anonymous]

On Own Now wrote:

ktmxr,

Welcome to the forum. I’m sorry that you are going through this. Your story is one of the most common here. It’s very similar to my own. Here you will find people who have suffered the same fall from grace that you have, yet are happily married to a spouse who remains all in with the Church. There are many who have raised children in the Church, even sending them out on missions.

One thing that has helped me tremendously is to think of the Church as an environment, rather than a godly institution. In this environment, there are faithful people trying to live god-centered lives. They believe some things I don’t, I believe some things they don’t, but I identify with them, I associate with them, I celebrate with them, and I mourn with them. Within this environment, I am at liberty to pursue my own brand of spirituality. It is sometimes very similar to theirs, it is sometimes very different. Either way, I own it as mine. I try to recognize the power of spirituality without the need to get wrapped around the axle about specific and minute points of doctrine. For example, I don’t care one iota about the Three Nephites, but I do find myself being spiritually uplifted by the concepts of putting away the natural man and walking in a new life, intentionally striving to be better. The Church is not a perfect environment, but it is the best one I know, and it works fine for me.

My own faith transition began many, many years ago, yet I have a believing spouse, I have children who have served missions and been married in the temple. I have Utah-mormon in-laws, yet I get along with them just fine.

I do want to address the spouse comment, briefly, because it is a situation that so many experience and this site is a great resource for discussion about what has worked and what hasn’t for so many.

For every couple where one spouse loses faith in the Church and the other spouse still believes, there are two heartbroken people. It is pretty common for each one to think that their own trials are extreme and that the other person doesn’t understand. Neither is more ‘enlightened’ than the other, though they both think they are. They typically both feel hurt, afraid, unsure, and even misunderstood by the other. Yet, there is one person in every such situation who is the one who changed. In my own case, I am the one who changed, not her. I feel that I have the greater obligation to be supportive, patient, forgiving, and caring. It’s not up to me to convince her about the Church, but to convince her that I love her more than anything else. It’s not for me to make her understand me, but for me to understand her. When we walked out of the temple all those years ago, we set out on a path together. We fully expected our lives to conform to the ideal that we both had. Now we find ourselves in a much different situation than we thought we would. My wife is still on the path, and I am not. I owe it to her to support her and accept her for remaining on the same path that we both agreed upon. I love her for who she is and part of who she is is the Church.

My advice is to go out of your way… to ridiculous levels… to show her that you love her more now than when you were married, and that while you are no longer a believer (or however who decide to describe yourself) that you support her wholeheartedly in the Church… that you don’t want to do anything to create dividing lines. My advice is never to talk doctrine. We all have a natural desire to explain why our logic is sound; to show that it isn’t US, but the CHURCH that has caused our faith crisis. We often find ourselves in situations where we are willing to verbally or emotionally confront the people that we love most in order to ‘win’ an argument. This is all part of that ‘natural man’ that we must let go of, if we want to live god-centered lives, IMO. My wife knows I am no longer a believer. If she ever wants to explore for herself and get my take on it, she knows where to find me. Until then, I accept her and the faith that she has. One mental aid is to imagine that your wife is Catholic. Would you tell her how weird transubstantiation is or trot out the Bad Popes or the selling of indulgences? Of course not, because it would serve no purpose other than to undermine what she believes in.

Finally, as has already been said by DJ on this thread, there is one very common piece of advice on this forum that I love and I think it is apropos for your relationship with others as well as the voice inside your own head: focus on what you do believe, rather than on what you don’t.

Thats great advice, thanks for taking the time to responsd. Your comments about loving my wife with more earnestness has proven to be wise, thank you! I appreciate you sharing some of your experience, I can definitely relate. I think I need to take a deep breath from time to time… especially wheb I visit my in-laws. They’re wonderful to me. I just get tired of the relentless obsession with the church and how perfect it is. I just want to tell them some of the facts they’re privileged not to be acquainted with…. but I wouldn’t feel right about it. I

scthomas34 wrote:

Hi ktmxr,

I have myself in similar position where my whole mission I defended the ban on the priesthood to African Americans as God’s doctrine, and recently found out it was really just Brigham Young’s biasness. I know that God always the human influence into the decision that have been made by GAs, but it has been a shock of how much that has been. I just want to make a few suggestions though. Though church history is not black and white as you and I were lead to believe or even close, you think you can still have somewhat of a good intellectual testimony of the church as well as a spiritual testimony of the church. It would really be worth your time to read objective author’s books who have done their homework on the issues that bother you to get full context. I do not think that Fair or farms would hurt either but of course these mostly focus on what supports their case, though they make some strong arguments.

Objective author’s are even better. This is especially true for the polygamy issues because this is the one that most, including those who leave the church over doctrinal issues, bring up the most. As far race issues, though it does not justify it, I would look at other Christian churches and even Abraham Lincoln’s attitude of race and mix black and white relationship to get a full idea of the general mentally of the 1850’s and 60’s. I know that in the restored gospel as taught every Sunday, you would expect some Heavenly intervention to prevent the course of racial exclusion in the church, but for whatever reason it didn’t happen.

Lastly, look for the truthfulness of the gospel not in the history or the current or past policies, even there are policy that would just urk me to no end if I dwelt on them and the lack of response to changing them at the top, but look for the truthfulness in the ordinances that were restored because that is really why the authority is so important. Restored ordinances are evident of course in the sacrament, temple ordinances, prayer, scriptures, helping others find joy and satisfaction in their life, etc. Even when I have been the angriest with the demands of church or some of the inflexibilities of Church policy, I have never been able to deny the spirit I feel in participating in the ordinances. I hope my two cents are of some worth. I loved BYU-Idaho. The spirit is so strong up their.

Thanks for your comments. I can’t deny there’s tremendous good. I’m glad I was raised the way I was, but at the same time I feel like I strived so hard to live some ideal that God never expected me to live…

sanders31105 wrote:

On Own Now wrote:

ktmxr,

Welcome to the forum. I’m sorry that you are going through this. Your story is one of the most common here. It’s very similar to my own. Here you will find people who have suffered the same fall from grace that you have, yet are happily married to a spouse who remains all in with the Church. There are many who have raised children in the Church, even sending them out on missions.

One thing that has helped me tremendously is to think of the Church as an environment, rather than a godly institution. In this environment, there are faithful people trying to live god-centered lives. They believe some things I don’t, I believe some things they don’t, but I identify with them, I associate with them, I celebrate with them, and I mourn with them. Within this environment, I am at liberty to pursue my own brand of spirituality. It is sometimes very similar to theirs, it is sometimes very different. Either way, I own it as mine. I try to recognize the power of spirituality without the need to get wrapped around the axle about specific and minute points of doctrine. For example, I don’t care one iota about the Three Nephites, but I do find myself being spiritually uplifted by the concepts of putting away the natural man and walking in a new life, intentionally striving to be better. The Church is not a perfect environment, but it is the best one I know, and it works fine for me.

My own faith transition began many, many years ago, yet I have a believing spouse, I have children who have served missions and been married in the temple. I have Utah-mormon in-laws, yet I get along with them just fine.

I do want to address the spouse comment, briefly, because it is a situation that so many experience and this site is a great resource for discussion about what has worked and what hasn’t for so many.

For every couple where one spouse loses faith in the Church and the other spouse still believes, there are two heartbroken people. It is pretty common for each one to think that their own trials are extreme and that the other person doesn’t understand. Neither is more ‘enlightened’ than the other, though they both think they are. They typically both feel hurt, afraid, unsure, and even misunderstood by the other. Yet, there is one person in every such situation who is the one who changed. In my own case, I am the one who changed, not her. I feel that I have the greater obligation to be supportive, patient, forgiving, and caring. It’s not up to me to convince her about the Church, but to convince her that I love her more than anything else. It’s not for me to make her understand me, but for me to understand her. When we walked out of the temple all those years ago, we set out on a path together. We fully expected our lives to conform to the ideal that we both had. Now we find ourselves in a much different situation than we thought we would. My wife is still on the path, and I am not. I owe it to her to support her and accept her for remaining on the same path that we both agreed upon. I love her for who she is and part of who she is is the Church.

My advice is to go out of your way… to ridiculous levels… to show her that you love her more now than when you were married, and that while you are no longer a believer (or however who decide to describe yourself) that you support her wholeheartedly in the Church… that you don’t want to do anything to create dividing lines. My advice is never to talk doctrine. We all have a natural desire to explain why our logic is sound; to show that it isn’t US, but the CHURCH that has caused our faith crisis. We often find ourselves in situations where we are willing to verbally or emotionally confront the people that we love most in order to ‘win’ an argument. This is all part of that ‘natural man’ that we must let go of, if we want to live god-centered lives, IMO. My wife knows I am no longer a believer. If she ever wants to explore for herself and get my take on it, she knows where to find me. Until then, I accept her and the faith that she has. One mental aid is to imagine that your wife is Catholic. Would you tell her how weird transubstantiation is or trot out the Bad Popes or the selling of indulgences? Of course not, because it would serve no purpose other than to undermine what she believes in.

Finally, as has already been said by DJ on this thread, there is one very common piece of advice on this forum that I love and I think it is apropos for your relationship with others as well as the voice inside your own head: focus on what you do believe, rather than on what you don’t.

Welcome to the Ward. I love what On Own Now wrote here. Beautiful advice.

I wrote this in a previous post, but I think a faith crisis can be a huge blessing. Instead of just going through the same old spiritual motions, maybe God wants to connect with you in a deeper way without the filter of Mormon culture. Maybe you’ve attached your spirituality and identity too much to the church, its rules and its culture, that this faith crisis is the Lord’s way of helping you awaken and truly analyze your relationship with Him.

What I have found is that once you’re at peace with your relationship with God and yourself, it really doesn’t matter where you choose to practice your spirituality or fellowship. You are at peace and happy wherever you are. Through this awakening process, you will also discover that your spiritual journey is intensely personal. Your spiritual identity (foundation) cannot be built on the church, it’s history, or its members. It can only be built on the Savior, and how that relationship works is only between you and Him, and no one else.

I’m still very active in the church, so this may seem funny to say, but I’m excited for you. Not for the hurt or anguish that you and your wife are going through, but for the awakening that is on the other side of your faith crisis.

Like others have mentioned. Focus on your relationship with your wife, love her unconditionally, and open your heart to the unknown.

Let us know how we can help.

Thank you, your very kind. I find that I’ve been more at peace with my relationship with God since my testimony crisis than almost ever before. I don’t constantly feel guilty. I don’t constantly feel like I should be doing better, that I’m always falling short. Where I am now resembles peace (as far as constant guilt goes) more than before in my life.

[Anonymous]

On Own Now wrote:

ktmxr,

One thing that has helped me tremendously is to think of the Church as an environment, rather than a godly institution. In this environment, there are faithful people trying to live god-centered lives. They believe some things I don’t, I believe some things they don’t, but I identify with them, I associate with them, I celebrate with them, and I mourn with them. Within this environment, I am at liberty to pursue my own brand of spirituality. It is sometimes very similar to theirs, it is sometimes very different. Either way, I own it as mine.

How does that work exactly? Does your wife still insist on reading the BoM together daily? Daily prayers? Etc? Sometimes this is where contention occurs. I always pray and read with my wife but she can tell I’m not feeling it the same way… this really bothers her and can cause hurt feelings. How do you go about teaching your kids about JS, church history, etc? I worry about how I’ll handle that…. I would feel like I was lying if I told the version I always believed, but I know my wife doesn’t want to tell them thosw details (at least she’s said that before).

Just for clarification, I’m not an unbeliever at this point… I don’t know where I stand. I’m trying to reconcile all my thoughts, emotions and experiences.

[Anonymous]

ktmxer702 wrote:

I’m just tired of feeling isolated with these intense feelings.

Hi, ktmxer – I’m glad you found this site. Two pages of superb advice here. Since I’m the spouse who left our common religious ground, I have to accept that this is just going to be a somewhat lonely period of life. But things are better than they were in the beginning and there have been some silver linings for our relationship. Good luck!

[Anonymous]

ktmxer702 wrote:

How does that work exactly? Does your wife still insist on reading the BoM together daily? Daily prayers? Etc? Sometimes this is where contention occurs. I always pray and read with my wife but she can tell I’m not feeling it the same way… this really bothers her and can cause hurt feelings. How do you go about teaching your kids about JS, church history, etc? I worry about how I’ll handle that…. I would feel like I was lying if I told the version I always believed, but I know my wife doesn’t want to tell them thosw details (at least she’s said that before).

Just for clarification, I’m not an unbeliever at this point… I don’t know where I stand. I’m trying to reconcile all my thoughts, emotions and experiences.

It’s common to conflate every aspect of our faith transition into one unsolvable problem. This is a complex and dynamic transition. Take it slow, worry about what you can control, figure out what you believe and what you believe in.

My advice is not to worry about the kids. I think you said it yourself in that last sentence. Spend your effort trying to figure out YOUR way ahead. In the meantime, support your wife (and kids).

As for prayer… prayer is non-denominational. If you are still a believer in something, but you’re just not sure what, then there is nothing wrong with praying. Think about what you say in prayers. It’s not owned by the Church. You and your wife should be able to pray together without making it a charged issue.

BofM reading… This one is tougher. Perhaps you offer that you’d like to switch to the NT for awhile. This could provide an avenue for you to foster the things you do believe in, and to find common faith ground with your wife. My advice, though, is not to turn it into an argument… if her heart is set on reading the BofM every day, then do that, because that is how you support her. Perhaps, then, you ADD New Testament reading… one chapter from Ether, one from John. That way, you address her needs and you address yours. I don’t know your situation, so it’s hard to suggest, but these are some ideas. Underlying theme still can be to love her for who she is, not to argue over religion, and to find common spiritual ground…

[Anonymous]

Like you ktmxer I am not an unbeliever, I am rebuilding and trying to figure out what I believe. At my house (my wife is TBM) I don’t say the prayer but I’ll otherwise participate. Prayers I do offer are vague and general, I don’t ask for anything and pretty much offer gratitude for the beautiful earth, our good health, etc. (even though I don’t think our health is a blessing). I’ll read scripture but, like your wife, mine can tell I’m not feeling it, either. I try to hide my feelings as much as possible but one can only hide so much and I tend to wear my emotions on my sleeve. My wife mostly teaches the kids directly church related things that I may or may not believe in. I will participate in those I do believe in (I believe JS was a prophet, for instance) and I remain silent on the others – I wish to do no harm. I do, however, sometimes clarify things – like that the first vision is not proof God and Jesus have bodies – it’s not contained or claimed anywhere in any of the versions. That doesn’t mean they don’t, that’s just not where we learn it. Another example might be that evolution might have been the way God accomplished creating man – there are other theories as well, we don’t need to believe the 6000 year theory. I also focus on the core principles of the gospel – loving God and loving our neighbors, believing in Jesus Christ and his teachings (which were love God and love your neighbor for the most part), etc., and I do at times point out that finer points of doctrine are not necessary to our salvation and aren’t necessarily worth our time.

[Anonymous]

ktmxer702,

It sounds like you are definitely trying to figure things out and how you feel about the church and what you and are not comfortable with. Like what has been alluled to before, it sounds like you come to a big generalization that some of it is good and the rest is not. If you feel solidly like that is where you permanently stand I can respect that and others will have to come to grips with it. If you are indeed, still trying to figure what you believe as far as the gospel and what you don’t, again I feel that time really needs to be taken to find the middle way. I feel that maybe you taken in a lot of just one side. To use an analogy, If you were in a court case, even if there was reasonable supposition that someone was involved in a crime, it was still be critical for the judge and jury to look at what role the person played-what it self-defense, irresponsiblity, manslaughter or murder. This like the Church, I feel it is important to find out what mistakes were actually made, why and for what reason before you make a judgement on what God would have wanted for your life and what you have done with your life. There are a lot pieces here, you made find that you fill the scriptures are inspired while God revealed to Joseph his word and JS later fell, or JS just had some really weak moments or something other completely different take, the same for Brigham and other. But you will not know how you really feel until you look at these issues from angles on all sides and the time you have already put into the church it would be worth it. Personally, I just feel that there are more answers out there than what people realize. By doing this, you may feel more comfortable with your view of the church and activity in the church and this will be easier for you and your wife’s experience in the church, or on the other end you may still feel about the same and she will be the one that comes to grips with it. I do know from my experience and others I have known that mental torture over church doctrine is horrible, and finding closure on what one believes is peaceful. On the flip side, I have noticed from the websites of those who have made the decision to leave the church who are bitter and mad, that no accusation, slander or assumption is too big against the GAs, no mockery is too insensitive, and the church is too blame for almost every problem that these once members have every faced. Whereas, the members on this forum of whom I think are really great, still have hurt or bitter feelings, but they have also come to terms with what they feel is inspired about the gospel, or enlightened or which parts help them become a better person. You do not seem like you want the first path and what that would entail for you and your spouse, though your the only one who can decide what will help you, but the second I feel will be worth the time so that you can carve out your own niche in the gospel.

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