New around here (familiar story!)

[Anonymous]

Hi, I’m Chris – first post!

I’m a 29 year old life long LDS from the UK. My family have been in the Church in Britain for over 100 years making me a 5th generation Mormon (which is quite uncommon here). I served a mission in Scotland, married the girl I’d dated since my teens in the temple and we have 2 beautiful children.

I would say I’m right at the start of a real crisis of faith. I’ve always had a belief that the church was true, and I could use the examples I felt where individual commandments had lead to blessings (wow, tithing, etc), but I can’t say that I ever had a sure knowledge. Since I returned from my mission 7 years ago, I have served in a variety of callings but being called as YMs president in the last year seems to have triggered my crisis of faith. This has probably been exasperated by the fact that my eldest son has just turned 3 and teaching him the gospel in the home is becoming important (and I therefore constantly worry that I can’t teach him something I’m not thoroughly convinced of myself)

Being academic, I was aware of some of the issues related to the church before my mission, and I had read some FAIR articles before I left. This last 6 months though I feel that all the old questions this raised have been brought right to the front of my mind. The deeper I dig, the more questions I have and the more it seems to point to a church so confused about it’s history and standing that I don’t know where to turn. It’s the usual things such as BOM evidence, Book of Abraham, post manifesto polygamy, blacks and the priesthood, byu censorship, strict obedience to church leaders despite fallibility, etc.

I also feel a complete political disconnect with mormonism (though I realise this is a sweeping generalisation). I’m in favour of Gay Marriage, Abortion rights, Gun control, assisted suicide, socialism (ish), liberalism, etc and I feel completely surrounded! I have hidden these views for years thinking that I’m just wrong, but I’m feeling more and more liberated to share them and be proud of my political convictions in the face of church members who are overwhelmingly the opposite.

I’ve thought hard about leaving, and shared all this with my wife who has shed many tears, but has been an absolute rock of support. I really can’t describe how glad I am that I married such a compassionate and understanding woman. The main things stopping my are the fact that it would be so detrimental to our marriage and children and would be a huge weight to bear for both of our extended families.

I’m sure many on these boards have been exactly where I am!

[Anonymous]

kristmace,

Welcome to the forum! I’m brand new here as well (my introduction hasn’t even been posted yet), but it sounds like we have much in common, so I wanted to say hi.

I can empathize with much of what you say. I find it interesting that what has triggered you crisis is being in a leadership position… when you see my introduction, you’ll see that my latest go-round has been caused by the same thing. I’d be interested in starting a new thread on this, and seeing if others share our experience, and how they’ve handled it.

While I don’t have the same issues with you regarding my political beliefs, I feel for you. Most of the deep friendships I’ve had in the church are with people who share many of your beliefs, and I’ve seen how ostracized they feel. It’s a terrible thing, and I hope you can find a kindred spirit that makes you feel safe while sharing your thoughts and feelings.

We also share the concern about indoctrinating our children when when we’re not sure we have a testimony of what we’re teaching about! I don’t know about you, but I’m really not sure I want my kids baptized when they’re 8. I’d like to see them have the opportunity to seek out truth on their own, and then make their decision when they feel ready. Do you have the same types of feelings?

Fortunately for us, we’re both married to amazing women. I know that one of the reasons that I still love the church is that it produces women like my wife (not that other religions don’t do the same).

If I could offer one piece of advice it would be this: during some of my many times of crisis, I’ve simply thought of myself as “in the church, but not of the church”. I go to enjoy the fellowship, but don’t worry too much about anything else. I kind of think of myself as an investigator, which helps me not feel guilty when I have questions, or wonder why some members are so weird. :lolno:

Anyways, I’m glad to see you on the board. It seems we may have some things to talk about, which I look forward to…

[Anonymous]

Yes, your experience does sound familiar…and yet unique in many ways. fifth generation mormon in GB…that’s very unique, and it is a cultural heritage that should not be discarded lightly… but a lot depends upon what YOU want to do. While it is true that the Church’s political positions are problematic, I have no issue being the sole liberal in my ward. Everyone knows where I’m coming from, and it’s all good.

Again, though, a lot depends upon what YOU want to do. In reading the story of Sterling McMurrin, he clearly never believed in any traditional sense, but still, loved the church and found a stable Middle Way amidst it. If your wife is a true believer, you’re going to have to come to a position that you both can appreciate — this may be heterogeneous/heterodox, but you’ll need to get there together. This is rather important, in my opinion. Thus, we say, “go slow”.

[Anonymous]

Thanks for the link Wayfarer. That’s another article to add to my kindle (which has quite a backlog at the moment).

I’m definitely going slow and not rushing into any decisions, but this has made my wife realise that this is a long term thing, not a fad that I’m going to get out of quickly. It’s the start of a long journey, and I don’t know where it’s going to end.

[Anonymous]

Welcome kristmace,

Your story is familiar but so unique to you. It helps to know that others are going through the same thing but it does not take away the pain, heartache and confusion that you are going through at this very minute. When it hits you or at least when it really hit me it was like I lost my best friend or my wife cheated on me. That’s not something that you can just wake up the next day and everything is good again. You will have to learn to live with the lose and make adjustments. All that I have discovered so far is that life goes on, the real truth doesn’t change and we can keep discovering that as we go, and that things will never be the same again as far as the church is concern. That doesn’t mean you can’t make it work, many have and have found more freedom and happiness while others turn better and resentful. For me sometimes there is a little of it all, but my goal is the freedom and happiness. Good luck and thankfully your wife has your back. On an unrelated subject Downton Abby Rocks.

[Anonymous]

Hi,

From a fellow-Brit, welcome! I do love our North American friends on here, but it’s nice to have a few Brits too. Feel free to PM me any time if you want to discuss specific British implications.

I love this board. I’ve tried a few others but they all seem leaning too far one way or the other. This feels like a real place for positivity in uncertainty.

I’m sorry to hear about your struggles. My wife is not active any more but is/was also a rare multi-generation British member. I know that for her a big struggle was feeling like she was letting down her heritage. That makes both yours and my kids 6th gen (I think?). I don’t stay just to keep the line going vicariously. But it still plays on my mind.

Look forward to hearing more from you.

[Anonymous]

Hello from another Brit! Nice to see a few of us appearing on here now, as with mackay11, feel free to PM and say hello.

You are totally right on taking it slow, if I had any advice to myself 10 years ago, that way I could have stayed in, rather than outing myself as the apostate in the ward, it would be easier for me at my current point.

[Anonymous]

Thanks for all your replies.

Interested that you mentioned going slow ex-mo as the first thing that came to my mind was to be very vocal about my opinions in church. Not necessarily the best idea!

Had another good talk with the wife yesterday and we whittled it down to the fact that most of my concern stems from BOM. She wants me to read it (again), and it’s the last thing I want to read right now!

[Anonymous]

How about reading it as a story, with no attempt to “get a testimony” of it – no expectations. Skip the Isaiah chapters, if that makes it easier. (Most Christians skip large chunks of the Old Testament, so you won’t be alone in a little selective reading. )

[Anonymous]

Welcome! I hope you find some of our ramblings useful.

[Anonymous]

kristmace wrote:

Thanks for all your replies.

Interested that you mentioned going slow ex-mo as the first thing that came to my mind was to be very vocal about my opinions in church. Not necessarily the best idea!

Had another good talk with the wife yesterday and we whittled it down to the fact that most of my concern stems from BOM. She wants me to read it (again), and it’s the last thing I want to read right now!

Any specific concerns? We’re not a bunch of apologists, but someone might have a perspective that helps.

For the sake of your relationship it’s probably worth it. To at least show you’re not just throwing it all out.

I’ve lost any certainty that the BoM is historically accurate, but I still read it and enjoy the story and embrace the principles of humility, kindness, service, loyalty. I do find that when I read it I have a more positive day. The ‘words work’ for me. I can have faith in the principles as Alma 32 suggests and let go of it needing to be literal.

It’s also certainly better to keep it to yourself for now. It can be incredibly frustrating sitting through a mind-numbing one dimensional sunday school class. But for the sake of family and friendship you’re probably better off keeping it to yourself, for now.

I can remember feeling incredibly angry and outraged in the early stages of my “shelf crashing” and wanted to shake everyone awake with a barnstorming outburst. I’m glad I didn’t.

I’ve mellowed a lot over the last month or so, to the point that the ‘me’ of 4 months ago would probably be disgusted with the ‘me’ of today. I’m not in a ‘manipulative money grabbers’ view of the church. I’m fairly confident that the ‘big 15’ are genuine people who sincerely believe they are making a difference. I’m comfortable with the idea that a large portion of what we do is culture and heritage, but I find value in what’s left from the triage.

[Anonymous]

Thanks for the reply mackay11, very insightful. I’m definitely in the angry/disillusioned stage where I want to let everyone know how I’m feeling. I’ve stalked some exmormon forums, but they’re a little too angry – seems much more measured here which is more my style (usually).

I’m starting to accept the fact that the BOM probably never happened, and that’s probably what causes the frustration as I’ve been lead to believe my whole life that it is “the most correct of any book on earth….”

In terms of specific issues, I’ve had problems with the ‘logistics’ of the book for a long time. The biggest one when I was younger was the Jaredites travelling across the sea in the barges ‘like unto a dish’. The size of these barges and the length of time they were supposedly at sea was preposterous. I was suspicious of some of the items and animals: elephants and steel being the main two. A short dip into the internet later and I found a whole list of these.

I’m still struggling with black and white vision. If the BOM did not come about as the church says, and if it isn’t historically accurate then the church is a fraud top to bottom and I want nothing to do with it again…. That’s not so easy being a deep cultural mormon with a TBM wife.

[Anonymous]

kristmace wrote:

Thanks for the reply mackay11, very insightful. I’m definitely in the angry/disillusioned stage where I want to let everyone know how I’m feeling. I’ve stalked some exmormon forums, but they’re a little too angry – seems much more measured here which is more my style (usually).

I’m starting to accept the fact that the BOM probably never happened, and that’s probably what causes the frustration as I’ve been lead to believe my whole life that it is “the most correct of any book on earth….”

In terms of specific issues, I’ve had problems with the ‘logistics’ of the book for a long time. The biggest one when I was younger was the Jaredites travelling across the sea in the barges ‘like unto a dish’. The size of these barges and the length of time they were supposedly at sea was preposterous. I was suspicious of some of the items and animals: elephants and steel being the main two. A short dip into the internet later and I found a whole list of these.

I’m still struggling with black and white vision. If the BOM did not come about as the church says, and if it isn’t historically accurate then the church is a fraud top to bottom and I want nothing to do with it again…. That’s not so easy being a deep cultural mormon with a TBM wife.

Or… It’s something in the middle.

What if, as Mormons, God understands we need ‘absolutes’ – one of my children’s like that. If he doesn’t know exactly what time we’re leaving a friend’s house or what we’re having for tea (dinner for the Americans) then he freaks out. These days we sometimes just make up a time and he rarely minds if the actual time we leave is different. What if everything has more impact on the majority because it’s taught in black and white when it’s not.

I think it has been made black and white by later leaders, when Joseph Smith seemed quite open about people finding their own way and own application.

Having said all that, there’s still a lot in the BoM that means I can’t accept a ‘intentional fabrication.’

By the way, Nibley has some really interesting things to say about the Jaredites. That they show similar behaviour to the people of North East Asia – which is significant, given the anthropological suggestions of links between Indians and Asia, not Israel. The whole of Ether reads more like an oral history handed down through generations that was eventually put in writing – like one of the ancient sagas that is part myth part fact (like Beowulf or Mabinogion). That would account for some of the ‘exaggerated’ parts of the story (boats that go under water, glowing stones, battles involving millions that go down to the leaders of the two armies and one runs around like a chicken after his head is lopped off. I’ll try find some references later. I don’t want to sound like an apologist, but there are some reasonable ways of looking at even the more contradictory parts in the book.

The Lehi in the desert stuff is also enough to get my attention and makes me hold off on saying it’s an fabrication.

Finally, the other thing I have to pause for thought over if I consider fraud… How did he actually do it. How did he dictate a 500 page book that has intricate plot-lines and some beautiful narrative, theology and gospel expression. If he collaborated, then with whom? All of the witnesses (who are viable contenders for collaborators) later left the church, some never returned. Oliver denounced Joseph and tried to start a new life as a (I think) Methodist. David Whitmer’s ‘Proclamation’ denounces the Utah church but in the same document affirms the truth of the BoM and the plates. All three had ‘deathbed’ testimonies put in writing. It’s possible that they all made it up, but it appears that they at least believed it to be real.

Maybe I ‘protest too much.’ I hope I don’t appear to be preachy and I don’t want to give the impression that it’s nothing to worry about. I just can’t resolve how a fabrication is actually possible when the book gets so much ‘right’ and when those who were in the publishing team all supported it to their deaths.

One other quick bit of advice if I may and then I’ll shut up. Sorry again if I sound ‘preachy.’ My wife left the church about 2 years ago (in part for historical reasons). She was very respectful about not imposing it on me. Now that I’m facing my own questions I’m very glad to be able to say that she made no attempt to get me to leave. I’m still active but her love and respect to not impose her doubts on me meant our relationship survived and is stronger for it.

It was very scary for me back then. I presumed her inactivity meant she would become a raging boozer who slept around. She didn’t, but I still needed a lot of reassurance.

[Anonymous]

By the way, go ahead and vent as loud and as angry as you want on here. The support forum is especially good for that.

I have and still do in various places. It helps

[Anonymous]

Hey Chris! Welcome!

What you’re going through is pretty normal. Myself I’m at a volatile state. At one point I just decided to throw away all my belief completely. I even stopped believing in God for a couple minutes, just long enough to let the consequences of such belief wash over me. Then I decided that I did believe in God. This was over a year and half ago. From there I’ve been analyzing all my beliefs and deciding what I do and don’t believe. The thing I’ve been struggling most with of late is the idea that faith is a choice. Sometimes there is no way to know something. The BoM is a great example. There are evidences that point both ways. Thus for one to believe it’s all made up is actually a choice. You look at the evidence and choose to believe that way. The “truth” is that there is no evidence strong enough in either direction and so we must have faith. We get to choose what to have faith in. For me, this is a moving target. I don’t accept it as fraud. I want to believe it to be true completely but I can’t because my mind won’t let me and God won’t tell me. So I sit in the middle on this issue believing as some, that it has truth in it and seems too complex to have been simply made up. So I believe it’s inspired in some way and that’s good enough for me for now. Maybe I’ll feel differently in an hour.

I highly suggest reading some or all the articlse here. Especially the howToStay and whyTheChurhIsAsTrueAsTheGospel ones.

Again welcome! I look forward to hearing more of your thoughts in subsequent threads!

[Author]

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