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cwald, fwiw, your friend has some deep-seated issues that he has to come to grips with if he’s hanging onto that complaint. He has to know that they believe Jesus is the Christ, and he has to have heard it said thousands of times in his life – and he has to know they were sincere when they said it. He’s picked the one thing that he is almost guarnteed not to hear at his doorstep – not because they don’t believe it, but because it’s so obvious they believe it and he knows they believe it that it’s totally unfathomable to them that they need to say it directly to him in lieu of anything else.
Please share that with him at some point IF you feel inspired to do so – but not if you don’t. Some things need to be left to us to come to realize on our own – and this might be one of those things, since he probably will come up with some other unfathomable need if he is forced to let go of this one before he is ready to do so.
NWwisdomseeker wrote:Hi,
In thinking though this, I have concluded the following: a) I’m very willing to reach out and make the appointment and visit these people; b) I would like to state to them up front that we have no intention of trying to talk them into anything. In fact, I would like to state that my intention is to listen to what they have to say and why they are considering leaving, identify if any of the concerns they have are things we can address either by clarification or by trying improve a situation within the ward, and assure them that we will respect their intentions and that we will always have open arms and a willingness to support them and help them in any way. I’d also like to use these visits to see if there might be either improvements we could make in the programs we run, or alternative ways to help people feel a part of the ward without making them feel guilty if they don’t want to attend the temple, or can’t stand to be in a fast and testimony meeting, or can’t claim that they “know” something, or have difficulty with the historicity, the exceptionalism, etc.
So the question I’d like to pose to this group is: what do you wish for in your local leadership? If you were in my ward, and the bishop and I showed up at your house, how would you want that to go?
Thanks!
Boy, I wish I had someone like you in my new ward! Ever since Boyd K. Packer said that the greatest threat to the church are intellectuals, feminists, and homosexuals, there are alot of members who now feel alienated from the church. If you read my thread on “Need Advice’ you know that I was very offended by my new bishop because he made me feel that me and my family were not wanted in his ward because we struggle with our testimonies and have doubts and questions. I have not heard from anyone from the church since I told the bishop we had gotten help elsewhere to unload our Uhaul since his offer to help was so conditional. He did say he had gotten my letter, but has not called to talk about it or to apologize. I think it is good for bishoprics to call and find out what offended people or why they are leaving in the manner you just discribed. I think it makes a big difference when some one really cares and really listens. Let us know how it goes.
Old-Timer wrote:cwald, fwiw, your friend has some deep-seated issues that he has to come to grips with if he’s hanging onto that complaint.
He has to know that they believe Jesus is the Christ, and he has to have heard it said thousands of times in his life – and he has to know they were sincere when they said it. He’s picked the one thing that he is almost guarnteed not to hear at his doorstep – not because they don’t believe it, but because it’s so obvious they believe it and he knows they believe it that it’s totally unfathomable to them that they need to say it directly to him in lieu of anything else.
Please share that with him at some point IF you feel inspired to do so – but not if you don’t. Some things need to be left to us to come to realize on our own – and this might be one of those things, since he probably will come up with some other unfathomable need if he is forced to let go of this one before he is ready to do so.
RAY – What planet are you from?
Maybe not too angry, cwald. Probably just reading things into my comments that aren’t there. Fwiw, your questions don’t fit my experience at all – and they don’t fit what I have written. Please try to understand what I actually have said, and how your reactions are to a stereotype – not to me.
If you came to my house I would ask you to provide some answers on an intellectual basis. Without falling back on scripture study and prayer can you give me some definitive answers to questions I have. Cadence wrote:If you came to my house I would ask you to provide some answers on an intellectual basis. Without falling back on scripture study and prayer can you give me some definitive answers to questions I have.
What would the questions be that you would ask? As a member of a local bishopric, I don’t believe I can speak for the church, so if you asked me major questions about doctrine or practice I would caveat every answer by saying that it is merely my belief or opinion. Would that be helpful? Or would your questions be more about the local community/ward?
Fwiw, when I am asked doctrinal questions, I almost always use the “this is how I see it personally” disclaimer – and I say it with a grin – and almost everyone understands exactly what I mean. The ones who don’t understand are the ones who wouldn’t be asking in the first place.It really is fascinating to me that when I say “this is how I see it personally” with an obvious grin, people really do get it. (I sometimes say, “OK, this is the Gospel of Ray you’re about to hear” – and I’ve said that in Sunday School and Stake Leadership meetings – and, as long as I grin while I’m saying it, almost everyone understands.)
There really is FAR more acceptance of personal interpretation in LOTS of areas in the Church than many people think – as long as it’s expressed in a way that is non-argumentative, non-combatative, non-aggressive, non-emotional, non-absolutist and generally meek. Notice, I used “non-…” predominantly, since it is the avoidance of appearing to want a fight and appearing to want to convince/convert that is critical.
NWwisdomseeker wrote:What would the questions be that you would ask?
I know I wasn’t asked this, but I’ll certainly give my 1.5 cents…There would only be a few questions I would ask — “how can I, or the ward leadership help you on your spiritual journey? Are there areas in the church/ward structure that you feel you would be interested in serving others?”
Then, maybe a few statements to help focus the important issues…like, “I think all of us have questions about church history and the correct interpretation of doctrine. To me, we are a body of people that attempt to follow the teachings of the Savior, and the main teachings he gave us are to love God, and to love and serve man. Are there ways we can help you do this?
Everything else is fluff.
Thanks, Rix. That was wonderful. NWwisdomseeker wrote:Cadence wrote:If you came to my house I would ask you to provide some answers on an intellectual basis. Without falling back on scripture study and prayer can you give me some definitive answers to questions I have.
What would the questions be that you would ask? As a member of a local bishopric, I don’t believe I can speak for the church, so if you asked me major questions about doctrine or practice I would caveat every answer by saying that it is merely my belief or opinion. Would that be helpful? Or would your questions be more about the local community/ward?
By biggest question is always “How do you know” You see I desperately want to know but all your methods of prayer and study never work for me. If you can give me some definitive experience beyond anecdotal or coincidental occurrences then I am interested. If not then I am afraid I must conclude your belief is fabricated.
Quote:By biggest question is always “How do you know”
Maybe you don’t.
Quote:By biggest question is always “How do you know” You see I desperately want to know but all your methods of prayer and study never work for me. If you can give me some definitive experience beyond anecdotal or coincidental occurrences then I am interested. If not then I am afraid I must conclude your belief is fabricated.
My
knowledgeis only about my experience — I know that when I live a certain way, I’m happier and I have better relationships with my wife and children and other people I encounter. That way of life is my best approximation of the “good life” intimated by scripture and other writers and thinkers, and involves concepts like personal responsibility for my belief system, tolerance, patience, love, empathy, reverence and wonder, appreciation of beauty, desire to create. The specifics of our particular doctrinal approach (there is a God, he looks and acts thusly, Joseph Smith was a literal prophet, the LDS church is objectively the one and only vehicle for God to officially interact with man, etc.) — these run the gamut for me from manifestations of difficult concepts rendered in language and narrative, to troubling historical facts, to a common heritage that helps us understand how we emerged as a sub-culture and helps us identify ourselves as such (for both benefit and detriment). They are not things I “know” in the same sense of knowing based on my experience. Some of them are things that I have an appreciation for, and that can help me frame my actions or thoughts, and thus are objects of “faith” for me. Some of them are things I simply struggle with, or choose to de-prioritize for the sake of making everything else work out. Like anything else in life worth working for, it’s a bit of a sausage factory — messy, unappetizing if you look too closely, but lots of potential often realized.
So my approach with members is always to limit my “testimony bearing” to things I truly know, and caveat everything else with “I believe” or “I think” or “I wonder”.
One other thing about “knowledge” and my role in other people’s knowledge: I don’t believe it is my responsibility as an individual or as a member of a bishopric (or any other official calling) to get anyone convinced of anything. I think it is my job first to come to a state of being in which I am self-aware, and self-responsible. I need to work out my own salvation in fear and trembling, to put it in New Testament parlance.
With regard to the organization, I believe I am sometimes called to administer the programs for the benefit of the members. In this capacity, I believe I am accountable to the membership to help structure the community and its programs to maximize the possibility of benefit accruing to the membership. This is an impossible task — you can’t satisfy everyone’s needs through a common program. But in general, I believe that communal effort often surpasses the capability of individuals to accomplish good things (and bad things too), and thus it is worth trying to make the programs function to help the maximum number of people.
I don’t believe we should gate participation in the programs by a test of “right thinking” or even necessarily “right living”. Actions are important, and I believe there are some actions that should probably disqualify someone from participation in any society, but they are rare, especially in a religious society which is built on a promise of “come unto me … and I will give ye rest.”
Were I not in a position of leadership, I would still feel a sense of need to participate and improve the society, despite its faults and the faults of its participants (including myself), as long as I am committed to being a member of that society.
None of which gives me either the right or the responsibility of trying to convince someone to believe or “know” anything in particular. It is your job to discover, develop and live by your own belief system. To the extent that you choose to participate in the society of which I am a member (or especially a leader), it is my responsibility to do what I can to insure that the society provides value to you in your quest to deepen your belief structure, to live your beliefs more fully, or whatever other benefit you believe you can derive from the society.
In its perfect state, the act of living by one’s beliefs and the act of improving the society in which one chooses to be a participant, are perfectly efficient — they are one and the same and support each other perfectly. But we don’t live in that idealized state, so we are constantly working to balance the interests of one’s self and one’s affiliations.
Sorry for riffing on a few mixed themes here — the basic point I wanted to make is that when I come to visit, I don’t believe my objective is to get you to “know”. It is to understand, encourage, find out how to improve the community, and to deliver a message of welcome and respect. It is up to you to figure out what you know and believe, and ultimately what you intend to do with that belief.
NWwisdomseeker wrote:Sorry for riffing on a few mixed themes here — the basic point I wanted to make is that when I come to visit, I don’t believe my objective is to get you to “know”. It is to understand, encourage, find out how to improve the community, and to deliver a message of welcome and respect. It is up to you to figure out what you know and believe, and ultimately what you intend to do with that belief.
That would be an excellent approach. If you take the approach that you are not there to fix a problem but help facilitate their own spiritual journey then then in my mind you have the correct approach.
Cadence wrote:NWwisdomseeker wrote:Sorry for riffing on a few mixed themes here — the basic point I wanted to make is that when I come to visit, I don’t believe my objective is to get you to “know”. It is to understand, encourage, find out how to improve the community, and to deliver a message of welcome and respect. It is up to you to figure out what you know and believe, and ultimately what you intend to do with that belief.
That would be an excellent approach. If you take the approach that you are not there to fix a problem but help facilitate their own spiritual journey then then in my mind you have the correct approach.
I second Cadence’s comments.
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