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For those of you that remember my introduction when I first started coming to this site my wife was a couple months pregnant with our first child. Last week we were so blessed to be able to welcome him into this world. Seeing my son for the first time was an amazing experience. It’s been more exciting and amazing than I could have ever believed! 
But it’s also been a test of my “struggling” faith. I think it really hit me when my best friend’s dad said while visiting in the hospital: “Just think, there’s a little future missionary!” My reaction took me a bit by surprise. I didn’t say anything out loud but my inside voice was screaming “can’t we let him have one full day on earth before we start trying to make the little guy feel pressured to go on a mission?!?!” And it kind of set me off… I’m finally getting around to writing about it. I’ve been a little busy hehe.
Since I’ve started exploring my FC more I have to say that more and more has slowly fallen away. Very little at church resonates anymore and I have little desire to go right now. I am OK with sacrament meeting as I enjoy the sacrament, but past that I just don’t want to hear the lessons. I’ve discussed my issues with my wife a lot more and she’s generally supportive. She’s with me in whatever I choose to do although I can tell she’s not particularly excited about it. She has her own divergent views, however, and isn’t blind to a lot of the issues. She just chooses to set them all aside. I guess she’s aware of Pandora’s box, but chooses not to open it. It’s too late for me heh. But at least she’s not the type to make me choose between her and my feelings about church. I can’t imagine a better wife for me.
Anyways, with my new son being born I have begun reflecting on his future in the church… and my past. There’s another thread about whether the church is good and bad for kids. It’s a question I’ve been pondering. I see benefits to being raised in the church. I think a lot of the standards are good. And compared to many evangelicals I ran into on my mission, I think LDS can be relatively open minded. And I agree with the basic theology far more than with other churches I have experience with. And since I don’t really believe there is “one true religion” anywhere on earth, I’m not really inclined to seek out a new one–especially since my wife is more or less happy with the LDS church.
I see benefits to my children learning at church that there is a god who is their loving father and cares for them and wants them to see him again, to be nice to others, to not lie, steal, etc. I want them to learn to avoid swearing, date responsibly and try to reserve sex for marriage. I want them to take part in activities in mutual and boy scouts. I see value in the communitiy aspects of the church.
What scares me is that I DON’T want them brainwashed. The mission thing is such a sore spot for me. Even as a kid I wouldn’t sing “I hope they call me on a mission” because my 7 year old head knew it was brainwashing. Fortunately my parents never pressured me. When I served my mission it was my choice and I don’t regret it. I’m very glad I did. But I might have gone earlier if I hadn’t felt the need to fight back at the pressure. My parents didn’t pressure me but they were also still largely TBMs. So on other issues they still stuck to the church line.
My problem is that I can’t do that. And so I’m wondering how my kids can learn one thing at church on Sunday and then have dad correct it or disagree with it or whatever I’ll do. I just imagine it coming to a point where the question “if we don’t believe that much that’s being taught, why do we go?” being asked. And that’s the one I have trouble answering.
I know these issues are several years in the future and that my wife’s desire to raise them in the church will ultimately be more important than my own issues. I just want to be a good dad, as I’m sure many of you can relate.
Thanks for reading my novel!
First, CONGRATULATIONS!!!!That is wonderful to hear. It has worked for me, beautifully – and others I know. As I said recently in my parent brag post, one of my sons was just recognized as the best example of Christianity on his campus – and his older brother might have received the award, otherwise. At the most practical level, that’s all I can tell you.
Having said that, I have to add more.
😆 It works if you play the active role you are supposed to play and allow them to take the best the Church can give them and leave the worst – which requires you have open communication lines with them and know what they are hearing at church. It means allowing them to become independent thinkers who will agree with you about some things and disagree with you about others. It means allowing them to grow up to be like you OR like your wife – or, hopefully, just themselves.
The Church is going to mold your children in ways you don’t want ONLY if you allow that to happen, since you are at this point in your own faith development early enough to be a director and not just a spectator. So, rather than worry about the Church’s role, build your own. There isn’t a better alternative for you, and the one you have is a good one.
You now are a producer; be a director, as well. Help them find the roles they are meant to fill.
Congratulations on the birth of your son! Parenthood is such an amazing and challenging adventure. Your best friend’s dad sounds exactly like my in-laws. I have four children, two of them boys, and every time they see or talk to my husband’s parents there is some mention of a mission. All of their messages to my kids in their birthday cards are about how they are so proud of them going to church and how one day they’ll hold the priesthood or get married in the temple. It drives me nuts. I worry that my children will see their grandparents’ love for them as conditional to their “worthiness” which is exactly how my husband felt growing up. Anyway, that’s a whole other story. What I’m trying to say is that I know how you feel. I too worry about the messages they hear at church.
It sounds like you read my post about what is best for the kids. You probably also read that my 9 year-old is becoming very aware and upset by the constant pressure to serve a mission. I love Ray’s advice about keeping communication open and being sure that they understand that they can take the good and leave the bad. I also agree that it’s to your advantage that you’re thinking about this now as opposed to when your son is older and has already been attending church for some time.
wuwei wrote:“if we don’t believe that much that’s being taught, why do we go?” being asked. And that’s the one I have trouble answering.
This is where I have trouble too. I’m trying to take it one conversation at a time.
wuwei wrote:…Last week we were so blessed to be able to welcome him into this world. Seeing my son for the first time was an amazing experience. It’s been more exciting and amazing than I could have ever believed!…But
it’s also been a test of my “struggling” faith. I think it really hit me when my best friend’s dad said while visiting in the hospital: “Just think, there’s a little future missionary!”My reaction took me a bit by surprise. I didn’t say anything out loud but my inside voice was screaming “can’t we let him have one full day on earth before we start trying to make the little guy feel pressured to go on a mission?!?!” And it kind of set me off… I see benefits to my children learning at church that there is a god who is their loving father and cares for them and wants them to see him again, to be nice to others, to not lie, steal, etc. I want them to learn to avoid swearing, date responsibly and try to reserve sex for marriage. I want them to take part in activities in mutual and boy scouts. I see value in the communitiy aspects of the church…
What scares me is that I DON’T want them brainwashed. The mission thing is such a sore spot for me. Even as a kid I wouldn’t sing “I hope they call me on a mission” because my 7 year old head knew it was brainwashing…My problem is that I can’t do that. And so I’m wondering how my kids can learn one thing at church on Sunday and then have dad correct it or disagree with it or whatever I’ll do…I have a hard time reconciling my kids being taught things that I do not believe are true. Especially in such a manipulative way as can be done in the youth programs of the church… Congratulations on your baby. As far as concerns about manipulation and “brainwashing” I think one of the best antidotes for this kind of thing is simply being aware of it and one reason these tactics are fairly effective is simply because many people don’t even recognize that’s what is happening. If my parents had told me that the Church can be wrong sometimes and it would be alright to judge for myself and make my own decisions then I don’t think there is any way that I would have ever trusted my bishops or others at church over them or been overly confused by hearing different messages from different sources, but it’s precisely because they both acted like the Church was the be-all and end-all in life that I ended up picking up this general idea as well. I’m sure most Church members probably mean well with all this overbearing pressure about things like missions, temple marriage, etc. because they really do believe it is best for everyone else but it definitely gets out of hand sometimes.
Congratulations! You’ve got access here to lots of wise people (not me) with kids of all ages. Things were really fresh for me last fall and I nearly blew a fuse sending my child to the MTC. I’ve thought a lot about parent/child boundaries, regret, my limited vision, the unknowable, etc. So I love and support and take it one day at a time. So trite, but true for me. The only other thing that comes to my mind is to try to not panic and throw your wife’s life into commotion. Childbirth is grand, but she’s on her own rollercoaster right now.
Thanks everyone! I don’t know what I’d do without this place. I love having such a colorful group to discuss things with. I wish we could be a ward sometimes. Ray, I do believe that taking a more active role is going to be necessary. Unfortunately it’s kind of a hard thing to take a more active role in a religion/ward/etc that I’m currently feeling only marginally attached to. I’ve always felt a little separate from the Sunday part of church. Almost as if it’s the TBM’s church and I just visit sometimes. Even as a missionary I somehow felt like I was a pretender. That was probably justified since I had atypical views, atypical teaching styles, and a very atypical mission in general. I have yet to really own that the church is as big of a part of my family history, culture, and upbringing as it is for anyone else. I have trouble feeling that it is *my* church. So as a result I have a hard time wanting to take an active role at church. And I feel that an active role at church will be necessary for my son to take my guidance in it. I have to show that I can have different ideas and still participate…not wait for him to come home from church and try to undo it. That’s much less productive. I do believe I can take an active role at home though. But I have a desire, as crazy as this sounds, to be a YM leader and do scouting again. I loved Boy Scouts but I had absolutely horrible leaders. I think it’s such a great tool and I would love to be able to make sure my son got taught the things it’s supposed to teach. So that’s my hope.
I strongly agree in teaching independent thinking. With many things to me it’s not so important what people believe as long as they have a justification for it. I disagree with my brother’s political stances, for example, but I understand his reasoning and thus I accept it. There’s no way to know which of us is right. I just want to know he’s thought it out for himself and isn’t parroting someone else. I guess that will be the same with my son. He’ll learn things at church and at home and I need to worry less about what he is being taught and more about teaching him how to think for himself. My father did a good job of making me skeptical of my school teachers but I was not taught to be skeptical of church. I was taught it was right. I trusted my father on that and when I realized as a teenager it wasn’t quite true it caused a lot of problems. I just need to teach my son to think for himself and that if something at church he’s taught doesn’t sound right, then he doesn’t automatically have to accept it. He can ponder it and make a decision for himself. I don’t want him to be a carbon copy of me, I want him to be a happy, independent, well-adjusted adult.
Ann, as for my wife, I love her.
I’m the one with issues…especially in Utah. I can’t wait to graduate and move away. I know that I will never be a TBM but I think that the Utah culture exacerbates my problems with the church. MayB, I see that so often here where someone’s worth is based only on their activity, desire to serve a mission, etc. It’s so sad. And it’s lead to a lot of unprepared missionaries coming home early in my parents’ ward.I’m glad my parent’s didn’t base my worth on that. Maybe when I was younger but they’ve both relaxed so much. And I’m starting off more open-minded at the beginning of my son’s life than they are now.
DA, I really appreciate that. I didn’t have a totally black or white upbringing but I can certainly see how it can hurt. As a kid, Mormon Doctrine was presented to me as truth. I was a precocious reader and read the whole thing before I was 10. I read everything I could find. I thought Saturday’s Warrior and My Turn on Earth were inspired depictions of the Plan of Salvation. When I was a teenager I realized that they were just someone’s ideas. BRM’s logic in MD seemed so contrived even to my 13 year-old mind. But along with a bunch of other stuff I just ignored it mostly and let it simmer until my mission when I was suddenly confronted with issues daily. Whenever I brought up doubts about certain things my parents (convert dad especially) would try and explain it away or wonder what sin I was committing. I think simply helping my son be aware that he can think for himself and that the world isn’t black and white will help him avoid the crash many of us had. I can help him build his foundation of rock instead of sand, if you will.
Thanks again everyone! My hope has been renewed.
I didn’t say you have to take a more active role at church. I said you have to take an active role in understanding what they are hearing at church. Even a non-baptized, non-attending parent can do that. Perhaps that’s a case of you intending it one way and me being inspired a different way. Yeah, there is that. 
However you meant it, i thank you. To expand a bit, I have a good friend in this ward that outwardly appears entirely TBM. But I was having a good discussion with him about our missions and we ended up talking a little about the various issues we had. It turns out we had a lot in common. Now he is a 100% attendance active member and I’m…well, not.
Anyways I talked to him about my feelings a little bit–mainly those related to my issues with the “utah mormon” cultural issues and he made a comment that I wasn’t expecting.
I can’t quote exactly but the gist of it was that if I wanted to see those problems change I needed to be there and help them change. And that nothing would change if people like me didn’t attend and speak up. Something you said hit on that. It’s something that I’ve been mulling around for a while. I need to view church as a way to serve and help others and not complain so much that “I’m not getting anything out of it”. I’m not sure I’m ready yet but I am understanding the need for it more and more.
Something I was pondering last night was that Jesus was literally in a church full of pharisees. And yet he never left Judaism. On the contrary.. he became a rabbi. He taught others. And he kept teaching despite the powers-that-be not agreeing with his teachings.
So yet another thing Jesus is a good example of is staying in a religion you don’t 100% agree with and trying to change it for the better.
Quote:Something I was pondering last night was that Jesus was literally in a church full of pharisees. And yet he never left Judaism. On the contrary.. he became a rabbi. He taught others. And he kept teaching despite the powers-that-be not agreeing with his teachings.
Yup, he was a buffet Jew.
:shh: The vast majority of Christians have no clue that Jesus of Nazareth was a Jew, not a Christian. That’s one of the reasons I love the Mormon concept of adoption into the House of Israel and the restoration of God’s covenant with Abraham. I just think most members have no idea, really, why those concepts are so powerful.
As someone who didn’t grow up in the Church, I find your best friend’s Dad and his comments alarming, cultish, disturbing and creepy. I would of thrown him out of the room. I never make comments about my friends/relatives children. Not only is it none of my business, I’m busy worrying about myself. I’m just curious, did your friends Dad go on a mission and did all his male children? I give you serious credit for keeping your cool!
first, congrats on your child. my first was born 33 years ago today…and she and her four sisters are amazing. life gets put into perspective with these milestones. second, regarding your FC. personally, i find amazing comfort and answers in your screen name: wuwei. lao tzu said, “practice wuwei, and nothing will be left undone.” the
Empress DouCook Ting’s natural abilityWuwei is the principle of agency in the plan of salvation: that god would not force anything: even god practices wuwei. yet mormonism today knows nothing of wuwei. everything is forced, mandated, unnatural in its flow.
wuwei (無為) literally means “without acting”, implying doing what comes naturally in any given situation. while simple to grasp, it takes a lifetime of practice to get it right. I certainly haven’t mastered it, but when i let go of things, and step back, seeking to find the flow, things often work themselves out on their own.
Thanks Wayfarer! I chose my name specifically because I see God as the embodiment of the principle of wuwei. I am certainly not great at practicing it. But it is such a beautiful thing and I hope to be there someday.
But the God preached on Sundays is so different from this. He is apparently concerned with what I eat, drink, watch, and even how i wear my underwear…
I really doubt that he would concern himself with such trivial things. Drinking tea doesn’t make me bad. But judging those who do as not worthy of my company would… And yet I was taught that.
And yet I feel drawn to Mormonism. There’s a kernel of truth hidden in it that I can’t find elsewhere. It’s just surrounded by so much “stuff”.
AngryMormon,
Yes his kids did all serve… Though they had issues. I feel especially bad for my friend. Since his mission he hasn’t and probably never will live up to temple standards. But he’s afraid to marry outside the church because his parents would freak. He has siblings that did and later came back but he won’t. He’s been disfellowshipped twice and is afraid that confessing would get him exed.
I think he would be so much happier if he’d just find someone and be happy. But he doesn’t feel outside the temple is an option. I haven’t talked much about my feelings to him. His family is like my second family at this point and I don’t really want to be the catalyst for a fight. But I feel like something’s got to change. I’ve been at a loss.
So…..new issue. My wife totally surprised me tonight and wanted to talk about what is going on with me. I wasn’t really expecting it. We usually read the BoM together at night but since the baby was born we’ve been slacking. Tonight I suggested we read them and so we read our chapter and then she said the prayer. In it she prayed that I would be helped with my “struggles” and that we’d be able to share them. I thanked her for praying for me and then she unloaded….in a nice way. But still, I was kind of taken by surprise.
She and I have been OK to this point. But I guess she’s become increasingly worried about my lack of attendance the last little while. I’ve kind of temporarily disengaged from activity as I’m working through this. I’ve made a few token appearances at SM but that’s about it. I’m about to the point where I want to start attending regularly again thanks to threads like this.
Anyways, she’s afraid that I’m falling away, that I’m not going to be there to support our son, that I’m not going to be a worthy priesthood holder, that we aren’t keeping our temple covenants, and ultimately that I’m going to leave the church. This is exacerbated by the fact that her father was many of those things. He is inactive, an alcoholic, smokes, and was physically abusive. So in her mind I think inactive father = abusive alcoholic. The funny thing is that my father was just as physically abusive while he was in the EQ presidency and we were all active. Often he was abusive over things like catching me drink caffeine…
I wasn’t really prepared for this conversation right before bed tonight. We talked for a couple hours before she went to sleep. Our son started fussing so I went in the other room. I finally got him calmed down and now I’m just trying to process the conversation.
It’s a really hard conversation to have, but it was harder because our views of church have become so different. The only specific issue we discussed was that the Church isn’t perfect. This is something she agrees with but she doesn’t see the big deal with it. She also wasn’t active until her teenage years and never really thought it was perfect. So she doesn’t understand how hard this realization has been and why it’s taking me so long to process. Especially after years of being in denial about it trying to keep Pandora’s box from opening.
As far as being a worthy priesthood holder or keeping our temple covenants, we are so far apart right now on what that means to us. I’ve disconnected our temple sealing from the Church in my mind, I think. I hold my promises to her and God sacred, but I have no belief that anyone in the church is the arbiter of my salvation or exaltation. My marriage is sacred to me completely apart from the church. Same with the priesthood. I no longer really believe that It’s necessary in the way the Church teaches. I understand the right of the church to authorize only certain people to baptize and confirm new member into the church. But I’m not sure that I believe that my priesthood blessings are any more powerful than a blessing from her would be.
As for being a good example to my son, that’s really hard for me. I want to be a good example. But I think you can be a great example without church or a horrible example with the church. Being a good example for my son has nothing intrinsically to do with the church. The church might help me in some ways but it is not essential to the process. This is how I make sense of a lot of things though. For her these things all still run straight through the church. We didn’t talk to much about this because common ground wasn’t there. Same with other issues. She feels guilty or upset or whatever. I don’t. I’ve let go of these emotions for things surrounding the church. The only thing I feel guilty and upset about is that I’ve somehow hurt her. Of course to her I’m just ignoring the church guilt because I don’t want to be righteous right now. But in reality the church just doesn’t have standing to try and impart guilt to me. So I don’t care. As I’ve discussed on another thread: I don’t NEED the church. She feels like she needs it. It bothers me because it’s as if our relationship somehow means less to her without the church being in the middle of it. Where to me it’s freeing to have my family truly be the center of my life and let the church be a part only as it helps me and family.
Anyways, i”m kind of tired right now. Hope that makes sense. I just don’t know what I can do to help her. I love my wife and son and it kills me that I’ve put her in this spot. I need to be able to reassure her. And I could use advice on what I could do to try and help my situation with her. I know we need to compromise. I’m just not sure how we get there when we talk about the same things but understand them in entirely different ways. I know she wants me to become an active, calling-holding, temple-attending, home-teaching TBM. But I never really was and I certainly can’t get everything back into Pandora’s box now anyways. And it’s not that I don’t want to do those things, I just don’t want my worth as a husband/father/person to be based on how often or well I do them. And I really want to teach my son that he has worth and can be a good person apart from the criteria set at church–although the church could help him achieve that if used as the tool it is.
Anyways, thanks for reading. I’m grateful for this place!
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