New father, new FC..

[Anonymous]

Also, in fairness, I tried to help her understand some of my issues before we got married. She acted like it was no big deal. But I’ve since learned that a lot of times that just means that she’s choosing to ignore what I just said because she doesn’t want to process it haha. Sometimes it’s cute, but on this issue it really isn’t

She’s the exact opposite of me. I would take any little thing and instead of ignoring it, it’d quickly blow it out of proportion.

[Anonymous]

Confucius, in the great commentary of the Yi, wrote: “one yin, one yang, this called ‘the Way'”.

Opposites profoundly attract so much that it’s not hard to find marriages where there is little in common between the spouses. I certainly have that situation, and it has provided many, many challenges over the past 34+ years of our relationship. One might think that lacking things in common is a problem, but it’s also inherent in nature — it’s the way things often work.

yet, it’s not the differences that define us, but rather, the unity amidst the differences. In the taijitu symbol (the common sign of yin and yang), white and black define each other, complement each other, and in fact, even the white has a bit of the black and vice versa.

[img]http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/13/Taijitu_-_Small_%28CW%29.svg[/img]

while there is nothing magical about the taijitu, the ancients who put it together — the school of yin/yang — believed that yin and yang were interlocked together in very important ways. Confucius, when he was fifty years old, felt that if he were given another seventy years of life to study this interaction, he might be a realized individual.

Even as we look into the book of mormon, it says, “There must needs be an opposition in all things”. While the frame of this opposition was typically ‘good and evil’, the reality is that opposition in things creates energy. A state of perfect equilibrium, heat-wise, is one in which entropy is absolute — everything is ‘luke-warm’, therefore no work can happen.

When I was not really attending church with my wife — due to my ongoing commuting to Asia — she became fearful that I would reject the religion that she holds to be the binding glue of our marriage — this was a deep threat to her stability and serenity. To use the symbolism of the taijitu, it was if my part of the yin/yang symbolism, whatever that might be, was drifting off from her…and thus her part was losing it’s definition (yin and yang define each other in the taijitu).

We had a particular conversation in Utah, as the City Creek Mall was opening… She said, “Why does the church need a shopping mall?” — and this led to a more open conversation. That openness has resulted in me finding a more ‘faithful’ position vis-a-vis the church for her sake, and in so doing, she has been able to more openly express her doubts and concerns as well. Only time will tell where this is going, but I know this: if I do my thing without her — then the inevitable consequence is to BE without her. If, on the other hand, I recognize that we’re in this together, then our journey — our traversing of the Way — is going to be together regardless of where it leads.

I guess my point is that as long as she feels alone in this as you figure out your own thing, she’ll be very fearful, because her reality is being threatened by your changes. On the other hand, if you work through the changes together, finding within yourself, the faithful part with which you can identify, then the binding ties — the integration of yin and yang — will enable a wonderful journey for you along the Way.

[Anonymous]

Attending church is a very important aspect of my wife’s happiness. I go largely to serve others (rather than to learn), but I also go because it’s really important to her. She is more important to me than “the Church” (even though I really do love the people at church and SO much of what constitutes “the Church”), so I attend weekly with her and hold the callings I am asked to do.

I am not “me”; I am part of “we”. I honor that, gladly, to make “we” as joyful as possible. In that way, I’ve learned to “lose my life” in order to find it, and I wouldn’t change that for anything.

[Anonymous]

Wuwei, sorry you are dealing with a difficult situation!

Have you tried reassuring you wife that regardless of your religious views, you will always be there for your wife and son? It pains me and scares me when I see family members of others put the LDS church first instead of relationships with family and friends.

I imagine you could still read the Book of Mormon with your wife if it’s important to her. Maybe you could view it and other church activities as a bonding tool that you share with your wife on a regular basis.

[Anonymous]

My husband is a lifelong member, returned missionary and we were married in the temple. I wouldn’t really describe him as a TBM though. He’s never really ‘magnified’ any of his callings, although he never turns one down. He doesn’t attend priesthood meeting or activities or do his home teaching and he only occasionally stays for Sunday school. He always sleeps through general conference and I never see him studying scriptures or praying on his own. So I was really surprised at his reaction when I went to him with my faith issues and his first response was to tell me that if I were to “go down that road” meaning inactivity or leaving the church, it would probably mean the end of our marriage. Now I realize that was just a gut reaction to what we’ve been taught all of our lives. It’s so drilled into us in church that the only way to be with your spouse after death is to be sealed in the temple and to live as a faithful, active, tithing-paying, temple-going member for the rest of our lives that the first reaction to one spouse having doubts or questions is a fear that you won’t be together for eternity.

We’ve since had several more conversations in which I reassure him that our marriage is the most important thing to me and that I don’t believe God will keep us separated for all of eternity just because one or the other isn’t active in the church. He’s also reassured me that he will be by my side no matter what decisions I may make or where my ‘path’ may take me. I think he was just worried that the church was what held our marriage together because in some of our early years it had been. We’d gone through things where the only reason he stayed and we worked through it was because of our belief in eternal families. Now he can see that our marriage, like you mentioned, is separate from the church and is more important.

I think it took a lot of courage for your wife to bring up her fears with you. All you can do is reassure her of your love for her and for your son and that you’re not going to turn into an abusive alcoholic husband and father just because you’re not active. You’re still you.

I think I saw you mention this somewhere else, but do your best not to steal your wife’s “magic”. My husband offered to study things out with me and then make a decision together. Initially, I thought that would be great. But as we’ve had small conversations about various topics and issues with the church, his defensiveness is telling me that he’s not ready and I don’t want to be the one to throw him down the rabbit hole, so to speak.

Anyway, I wish you the best of luck. I know these conversations are difficult to have, but they will be the conversations that build understanding and emotional intimacy between you and your wife.

[Anonymous]

AngryMormon wrote:

Have you tried reassuring you wife that regardless of your religious views, you will always be there for your wife and son?

I can only recommend lots and lots of reassurance. During some periods you may need to give an extra dose of reassurance. I believe that after childbirth may be one of those times.

There are three common and interrelated assumptions: 1) That being temple covenant keeping LDS is a prerequisite for staying together as a family in eternity. 2) That being temple covenant keeping LDS is a prerequisite for returning to live with God and that anything less is a form of exile. 3) That LDS rules and standards are generally what makes LDS people moral and ethical and without the church we may degenerate into outright debauchery.

You have the most power over reassuring her on point number 3 (though imperfectly – DW continues to insist that I yelled at the kids less before my faith crisis 4 years ago. She attributes this to a loss of the spirit and nothing I can do will change that fact.)

Reassure, Reassure, Reassure!!! :thumbup:

[Anonymous]

Warning: Novel Ahead…

Thanks everyone! I was really helped by your comments. Like many of you I don’t have anyone in my non-internet life that I can really talk to openly. I really am grateful for this site.

Today was a really good day. My wife and I had a great date tonight. We left our baby with her mom and spent time together. We didn’t discuss church or religion at all and I think it was a great thing. We just talked about other things. But talking to her about other things without religion I still think I got some insight.

Wayfarer, It’s very true that opposites attract. She is usually attracted by my constant need for philosophic contemplation. I on the other hand am usually attracted by her ability to just live without worrying about deep things. Sometimes those same things are the source of our problems. I see in her a sense of moral surety I don’t have. On many other things we are opposites, but I struggle enough with myself. I wouldn’t want someone like myself. I think there’s a beauty in us being opposite. It’s the only way to form the complete taijitu symbol. Two yins or two yangs can’t do it. I feel like it helps us, together, to be able to look at things from different viewpoints and really be more complete in our understanding than we would if we always shared the same views.

At the same time there’s definite issues in keeping the taijitu together hehe. You know far more than I do. I’m still new at this.

To those who stressed reassuring her, that’s what I’ve been trying really hard to do. After today I think she understands a little better that just because I have differing views on things that it doesn’t mean my feelings for her will go away. I really think she was scared that the church teachings about the need for marriage and all of that were the only reason i married her. We did hurry into it but I’d dated enough that I knew what I wanted when I met her, and she was all that and more. But I can see how from her point of view, she could be very afraid that me not believing the same in the church threatens the glue that binds our relationship. I told her when we discussed it that I loved HER and that it wasn’t because the church said I should but because I did. I think she understood what I meant. It might take a while for her to really understand and to believe me because it is a huge paradigm shift for her but I think she’ll get there. I know she feels the same about me. But she doesn’t understand it.

Roy wrote:

There are three common and interrelated assumptions: 1) That being temple covenant keeping LDS is a prerequisite for staying together as a family in eternity. 2) That being temple covenant keeping LDS is a prerequisite for returning to live with God and that anything less is a form of exile. 3) That LDS rules and standards are generally what makes LDS people moral and ethical and without the church we may degenerate into outright debauchery.

Nail on the head right there. Almost exactly verbatim what she brought up. And where we have the most disconnect I think. And I agree there is little I can do to help her understand my view on 1 and 2. We talked a little about 3. It was a realization I had on my mission when I met people of other faiths who were good, happy people. And I contrasted it with my miserable mormon self and that got me pondering the whole idea that the church brings happiness. I understand how she feels on that one because I used to be there. I used to think that the church rules were what kept me from doing horrible things. But now I realize I don’t do horrible things because they’re wrong. It doesn’t have a whole lot to do with the church’s rules or what anyone tells me. They just seem wrong. It was kind of a mind-blowing thing when I realized that I was actually a moral person apart from the church and I could be a good person without all of the little rules and fear of church punishment or fear of being ostracized to make me be so.

And I understand the idea that a temple marriage is a means to the end of being in the celestial kingdom. I just have gone from buying into it to thinking it is downright dangerous. Why would you marry someone to check a box so you can go to a kingdom where you’ll have to spend eternity with someone you only married so you could check a box? I used to get it….I don’t anymore.

And that’s what’s hard. I understand her point of view on a lot of things because I was there. But instead of helping me, it frustrates me more. I see how limiting, narrow, and scary it is. I feel bad for her still being afraid of all of these things. And she thinks I’m just ignoring the truth because I don’t want to be scared…oh well, I think time will help. She’s not really a TBM either, I think she, kind of like me at the time, thought that getting married in the temple would somehow change us. Well it has….but not like we thought.

MayB,

I don’t want to throw her down the rabbit hole either. I don’t have a desire to prove anything about the church one way or the other. That’s just not me and I don’t think it’s productive. I don’t like trying to convert people anyways. It made being a missionary hard haha. I just wanted to help people be happier. And I’m pretty sure that bringing up all my issues would make neither of us happier. I feel like we had much of the same experience. My wife isn’t especially TBMish but she can get very much that way when it has anything to do with issues particularly close to her heart. I think even though we haven’t acted like TBMs she was thinking in the back of her head that someday we would get there. And something in what I’ve been doing threatened that future. She doesn’t see that future change happening anymore and it worried her enough to talk to me.

Worrying about your eternal soul and that of your family is certainly OK. But I hate how serious I took the church on it and how serious she still does. About a month after our wedding it broke my heart as she cried about how she was happy that we would be an eternal family but she was so sad she’d never see her family again after this life. That was one of the things that helped push me into my FC. I just didn’t see the way she was feeling as compatible with what a loving heavenly father would want. It seemed like such a messed up situation. I felt what the church would call the spirit, in that moment, testifying that what I was feeling was right and that she certainly would see them again. I tried to comfort her saying she couldn’t know what exactly would happen and god loves her and her family but what I said couldn’t get past the church programming. 😡

Back to not wanting to help her down the rabbit hole…she actually suggested we study more about the church together (thinking it would help rebuild my faith is what I got from her tone) but I said I didn’t think that was the best thing to help our testimonies. :problem:

I think she and I will still read the Book of Mormon. I’m not sure what I believe it is anymore but on some level it’s inspired. At least parts. I have less issues with it that the Old Testament at any rate. I’d prefer reading the new testament–especially the gospels. I’m sure we’ll rotate that in at some point. I also have this dream that someday we’ll be reading the Tao Te Ching and Confucius and other such things together. But eh…

Ray, I would be willing to attend church because she wants to. But there are many other things I have trouble doing just because she wants to or wants me to. I understand the “I am not me, but part of ‘we'” concept but it is very difficult for me sometimes. Specifically right now I am having trouble with the word of wisdom. She is now the only reason that I don’t have a beer now and then. I couldn’t care less what the church thinks and I would be OK answering the WoW question on the TR I think. I wouldn’t feel bad about it. She would. But I’ve had many instances where I prayed about something and the answer to my prayers was basically to not worry about the church rule and just do the right thing. Specifically I had issues before my mission that others would have felt guilty and gone home over. I prayed and prayed and never felt anything other than “It really doesn’t matter, but you need to be on a mission.” I guess I just let my answers to my prayers trump anything from church sources. And I’ve done that forever…maybe I’ve been headed towards this FC longer than I’ve thought… And whenever I’ve ignored those answers to try and follow the church rules more strictly I’ve felt further from God and usually I get pushed into depression. It’s strange…well, I think most here would understand anyways…

I guess with the WoW thing it’s me wanting to have my cake and eat it too. A drink is absolutely not worth it if it will hurt her. She brings infinitely more joy to my life. There’s just that part of me that wants both the incredibly awesome joy of her and the little extra of the drinks I used to enjoy. But I guess we can’t have everything…

At any rate, I think that her bringing it up and us talking about it has helped a little. I was seriously pondering mentioning something to her this week and was trying to figure out what exactly I’d say. She didn’t let me get prepared though hehe. But I think both of us feel better since I don’t feel like I’m hiding as much and she feels like I’m being more honest. So in that sense it was a very good thing.

Thanks again everyone!

[Anonymous]

wuwei wrote:

It was a realization I had on my mission when I met people of other faiths who were good, happy people. And I contrasted it with my miserable mormon self and that got me pondering the whole idea that the church brings happiness. I understand how she feels on that one because I used to be there. I used to think that the church rules were what kept me from doing horrible things. But now I realize I don’t do horrible things because they’re wrong. It doesn’t have a whole lot to do with the church’s rules or what anyone tells me. They just seem wrong. It was kind of a mind-blowing thing when I realized that I was actually a moral person apart from the church and I could be a good person without all of the little rules and fear of church punishment or fear of being ostracized to make me be so.

for some great stuff on this particular topic please see the following post: http://forum.staylds.com/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=4072&hilit=+moral

[Anonymous]

I think Roy’s three points were spot on! The reason I think Roy’s three points are important is it helps to distinguish how the LDS religion is different than others.

In my Protestant upbringing, if a family member switches churches no one cares and/or makes moral assumptions about your character. However, in LDS culture leaving the church can put a serious dent in Christmas/Thanksgiving Dinner and other family events.

It seems silly to be willing to sacrifice the quality of your family life in the one existence you know you will have in order to hopefully be with your family in the next life.

Wuwei, glad to hear you had a good day! In addition, sorry to keep throwing out suggestions! This will be my last one, have you considered maybe not sharing your new views on the Church with your wife? It stinks not being able to be fully open with your spouse, but some things like religion and politics just don’t lead to good conversations.

[Anonymous]

AngryMormon, Feel free to suggest all you want! That’s why I start threads after all. It’s not just to write incredibly long posts to amuse myself.

That being said, I might not take all of them.

I really have no desire to share all of my problems with her. I don’t think either of us would be helped by me going over individual issues. I don’t even hope to win her over to my view on church and religion in general. I just want to be able to win her over to the idea that it’s OK to agree to disagree about it and try and temper her fears about whether or not we’ll be together for eternity. I’d rather we both could just focus, as you said, on making the best of this existence that we know we can spend together instead of worrying about an unknowable future existence so much.

I think there is a real value in switching our thinking from trying to get into heaven to trying to make heaven. I like the story of Enoch (historicity issues aside…) because it’s an example of making heaven on earth. They didn’t sit around waiting for the next life to make their existence better. They made their city into heaven on earth until God couldn’t deny them his presence. I think there’s a moral in that. This life is so much sadder when we just look at it as a horrible bunch of suffering we have to deal with until we get our reward in the next life. I find it so much better to view it as something we can work to change for the better.

But like has been said a million times on here. My wife has all her scaffolding around her building and she just isn’t at the point where she thinks it’ll stand without it. I have to be careful to let her move past it at her own pace and not tear it down to prove it’ll stand. Because maybe her’s can’t right now. Who knows…

We had another good day today. I’ve been trying to show increased affection and let her know how much I care. In some ways I think after our talk the other night she’s feeling better about a few things–specifically that I really do love HER and I’m not just with her because the church says I need a wife (wives? :shh: )to get to the celestial kingdom…… Although that doesn’t take away her fear of what happens after this life I think it helps her to feel better about herself in this one. At least it seems that way.

Thanks, and like I said, suggest all you want!

[Anonymous]

wuwei wrote:

I really have no desire to share all of my problems with her. I don’t think either of us would be helped by me going over individual issues. I don’t even hope to win her over to my view on church and religion in general.

Words of wisdom if you ask me. Sometimes we have to agree to disagree with family and friends.

[Author]

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