New Mormonism

[Anonymous]

DA, if you are correct in your doomsday view, then all Christian denominations are doomed, since they all rest on claims that are extreme and illogical – and include numerous highly problematic elements and countless statements that have been altered or discarded over time.

Further, even with its problems, the LDS Church still is one of the healthiest denominations in existence. The large majority are shrinking, while the LDS Church still has net growth – based on every documentable measurement of which I am aware, from inside and outside sources. If I remember correctly, it now is the fourth-largest denomination in the USA – and has climbed over mainstream groups to get there.

All is not well in Zion, but all is not sick, either. If anyone wants to talk about a dying religion, objectively, the LDS Church probably is not a solid choice about which to talk.

[Anonymous]

Old-Timer wrote:

DA, if you are correct in your doomsday view, then all Christian denominations are doomed, since they all rest on claims that are extreme and illogical – and include numerous highly problematic elements and countless statements that have been altered or discarded over time…Further, even with its problems, the LDS Church still is one of the healthiest denominations in existence. The large majority are shrinking, while the LDS Church still has net growth – based on every documentable measurement of which I am aware, from inside and outside sources. If I remember correctly, it now is the fourth-largest denomination in the USA – and has climbed over mainstream groups to get there…All is not well in Zion, but all is not sick, either. If anyone wants to talk about a dying religion, objectively, the LDS Church probably is not a solid choice about which to talk.

It’s not a matter of extreme claims that are hard for skeptics to believe because fantastic beliefs have actually proven to be remarkably popular so far; the problem is that the LDS Church continues to make so many very specific claims when there is so much evidence directly contradicting or discrediting these claims and expects people to believe them all at the same time. I don’t believe most other churches compare with this very well other than maybe young earth creationists and even then it seems like mostly something they preach but they’re not necessarily asking people if they have a testimony of all this in worthiness interviews. Then there are the relatively high costs in terms of time, money, strict obedience, etc. that don’t really compare very well to any churches I know of other than maybe the JWs and some of the most extreme evangelical sects.

Sure the Church is still doing alright compared to some other churches in terms of raw numbers but it looks like this is this is largely because of the members that still believe in all this and are not even aware of or don’t worry that much about some of the worst problems with the Church’s story and my main point is that the Church basically depends on many members believing things that are fairly easy to disprove or discredit in order to get them to accept the heavy costs involved out of a sense of obligation but as soon as the belief is gone the feeling of obligation will typically go with it and the only thing left to influence them is social pressure. I’m not a huge fan of Joel Osteen with some of the prosperity gospel notions but at least he had the vision to realize that what worked alright 40 years ago is not necessarily going to work nearly as well anymore and he has filled his mega-church with over 40,000 people by preaching what people want to hear nowadays. I think that kind of thing is the future of religion that can thrive, not depending on a sense of duty and people being ignorant of glaring problems with a long list of strict beliefs to get them to do things they don’t really want to.

[Anonymous]

Interesting conversation. So what if someone claims to have received a witness of some of these fundamental truth claims of the LDS church after doing their own studying? Are we ok with that stance or do we think they’re deluded or what? Isn’t that the guidance that the Book of Mormon, Bible, and D&C give?

[Anonymous]

rcronk wrote:

Interesting conversation. So what if someone claims to have received a witness of some of these fundamental truth claims of the LDS church after doing their own studying? Are we ok with that stance or do we think they’re deluded or what? Isn’t that the guidance that the Book of Mormon, Bible, and D&C give?

I don’t like the word delusion as a description for many religious beliefs because I think it implies a false level of certainty about what often amounts to nothing more than guesswork and hearsay in reality. Take the first vision account for example, I don’t think there is any way to know for sure if this was based on some sincere experience or simply something JS made up. I’m all for people believing what they want to but personally I don’t have much confidence that a spiritual witness, feeling really strongly about something, etc. is a very reliable way to know what is true or not compared to other approaches such as analyzing the available evidence, testing assumptions, etc.

[Anonymous]

DevilsAdvocate wrote:

rcronk wrote:

Interesting conversation. So what if someone claims to have received a witness of some of these fundamental truth claims of the LDS church after doing their own studying? Are we ok with that stance or do we think they’re deluded or what? Isn’t that the guidance that the Book of Mormon, Bible, and D&C give?

I don’t like the word delusion as a description for many religious beliefs because I think it implies a false level of certainty about what often amounts to nothing more than guesswork and hearsay in reality. Take the first vision account for example, I don’t think there is any way to know for sure if this was based on some sincere experience or simply something JS made up. I’m all for people believing what they want to but personally I don’t have much confidence that a spiritual witness, feeling really strongly about something, etc. is a very reliable way to know what is true or not compared to other approaches such as analyzing the available evidence, testing assumptions, etc.

Do you believe the Holy Ghost can confirm truth such that a person can know something is true?

[Anonymous]

rcronk wrote:

Interesting conversation. So what if someone claims to have received a witness of some of these fundamental truth claims of the LDS church after doing their own studying? Are we ok with that stance or do we think they’re deluded or what? Isn’t that the guidance that the Book of Mormon, Bible, and D&C give?

Delusions is certainly not the right word, and probably not even correct. People certainly can and do have spiritual experiences. I respect the beliefs of others as I hope they respect my beliefs. It would be arrogant for me to believe I am right and everybody else is wrong.

In answer to your other question (and not speaking for DA), I’m not sure. I agree with DA that feelings are not reliable and are too easily confused with our own feelings/emotions and confirmation bias, especially when it is only one individual involved. Frankly I’m not sure the Holy Ghost can or does actually witness of truth, and if it does I’m not sure how and how we’re supposed to know. But I respect that you believe you have had a spiritual witness – you may believe or not believe whatever you like for whatever reason you like.

I’ve felt this needs to be said in this thread for a few days, but I was going to let the thread settle and subside if that was its fate. About midway through my faith crisis (remembering I was inactive at church for several years) my SP came to visit. He was fairly new at the time and of a different point of view than his predecessor who was very black and white. We had a discussion about some of my concerns and why I didn’t come to church (which was that I couldn’t tolerate others talking about things they “know” that I knew they really didn’t know, basically). He told me some stories about some blessing he had received in his life, and I don’t doubt they may well have been blessings but I can’t say I have had similar blessings. Nevertheless, he began to bear his testimony, perhaps believing that doing so would work some sort of magic (a Jedi mind trick). He quickly realized (perhaps because he didn’t “feel the Spirit?”) that his testimony was having no effect and said as much. He said something to the effect of “no amount of me bearing testimony is going to work here, is it?” to which I answered I didn’t think so. That was that, we pleasantly wrapped up and he left. The point here is that just because you believe you have received a spiritual witness does not mean everyone else will receive that same witness. God works with you the way He works with you and He works with me the way He works with me – it’s not necessarily the same.

[Anonymous]

Amen DJ

[Anonymous]

rcronk wrote:

Interesting conversation. So what if someone claims to have received a witness of some of these fundamental truth claims of the LDS church after doing their own studying? Are we ok with that stance or do we think they’re deluded or what? Isn’t that the guidance that the Book of Mormon, Bible, and D&C give?

I would never personally say that person is deluded.

[Anonymous]

rcronk wrote:

DevilsAdvocate wrote:

rcronk wrote:

Interesting conversation. So what if someone claims to have received a witness of some of these fundamental truth claims of the LDS church after doing their own studying? Are we ok with that stance or do we think they’re deluded or what? Isn’t that the guidance that the Book of Mormon, Bible, and D&C give?

I don’t like the word delusion as a description for many religious beliefs because I think it implies a false level of certainty about what often amounts to nothing more than guesswork and hearsay in reality. Take the first vision account for example, I don’t think there is any way to know for sure if this was based on some sincere experience or simply something JS made up. I’m all for people believing what they want to but personally I don’t have much confidence that a spiritual witness, feeling really strongly about something, etc. is a very reliable way to know what is true or not compared to other approaches such as analyzing the available evidence, testing assumptions, etc.

Do you believe the Holy Ghost can confirm truth such that a person can know something is true?

I believe in God but I’m not sure what exactly to think about the Holy Ghost at this point. Even if he actually exists more or less as described in the Bible it still makes more sense to me that he would be much bigger and more important than Mormonism because the idea that God the father, Jesus, the Holy Ghost, Satan, and countless angels and demons would theoretically be so concerned about whether or not people believe in one relatively insignificant religious sect that represents less than 2% of the people (that self-identify as LDS) in the US and much less than 1% of the population worldwide seems like a colossal waste of life experience and a poorly designed arrangement overall. I actually do believe that personal revelations are possible mostly because of the number of accounts I have heard where people appeared to know things that would have been very unlikely for them to guess entirely on their own. However, I definitely don’t believe revelations like this will typically favor Mormonism in a unique way and I don’t believe they will happen for everyone on demand the way Moroni’s promise implies.

Why should people feel completely sure that any spiritual witness is a good way to know exactly what is true or not and not simply an induced emotional reaction triggered in their own mind to confirm their bias because they desperately want to believe something is true from the outset? What about all the Church members and investigators that sincerely pray for answers without ever receiving any? What about all the people that receive different and contradictory answers that Islam, the Catholic Church, etc. are the true path approved by God or even that the LDS Church is explicitly false? Even if especially strong warm fuzzy feelings about the LDS Church actually did come from God, the Holy Ghost, etc. in some cases that wouldn’t necessarily mean that this is the one and only true church on the face of the earth because it could simply mean that God doesn’t care that much what people believe and is happy to let them believe what they want to or even that he thinks it would be good for them to belong to the Church at that time in a way that doesn’t necessary apply to everyone in a universal way.

[Anonymous]

Quote:

rcronk wrote:

Interesting conversation. So what if someone claims to have received a witness of some of these fundamental truth claims of the LDS church after doing their own studying? Are we ok with that stance or do we think they’re deluded or what? Isn’t that the guidance that the Book of Mormon, Bible, and D&C give?

Both my brothers and I will be together this weekend.

Older brother served a mission, married in the temple. Prayed and studied about the church. He is in the process of converting to Judaism. He questions himself and his belief system constantly.

Younger brother also studied and prayed about the church. He feels he has been give a witness of truth of the gospel. He prays daily and has become very sure of his own righteousness in all actions. He has wondered why he hasn’t been made bishop yet. He feels that he has a lot of valuable insight that could help other people live more righteously.

I never understood the term Self Righteous until dealing with younger brother. Older brother is so much easier to be around. I’m not saying Younger Brother is wrong in his belief and faith, he just doesn’t recognize any path other than his own. I do wish he was a little less sure of every answer.

We each have our own journey. God gives us different answers. Not everyone reads the BOM, prays about it, and gets the same answer. That is the truth that doesn’t get talked about. It is a truth that should make us tread very softly around other beliefs. God is in their lives too. God speaks to all his children.

[Anonymous]

DA – several of your thoughts resonate with me.

Amateurparent – You touch on something that has really been on my mind about spiritual witness. I have one spiritual experience. It was just before I left on my mission. I took it at the time as confirmation that God was good with me going on my mission (I still have that belief) and that absolutely the church was true (not sure about that now). Now I have felt “touched” often. I get it via watching the Lion King, but I have also felt it at the end of a movie where the bad guy gets full of lead and it feels justice is served. The only thing I have felt is confusion or sleepiness in the temple. Some TBM’s might think that I am not just trying, but I know God would know that I have tried. I think my biggest “sin” right now is I drink 2 or 3 diet cokes a day (no – I don’t think it is a “sin”, but it isn’t good for me). All my life I have been a “good Mormon.” More often than not I did my home teaching, attend church every week, did my challenging call for a LONG time. I have never had a major sin and the more minor ones I have confessed and felt forgiven. So for a good part of my faith crisis I was crying out to God to send me a confirmation to hold on to. And I can’t say I have felt any witness. I am starting to turn from assuming something is wrong with ME and instead thinking that not everyone that follows the script will have the exact same result. Now I will admit there have been a few times where I feel I might have been led, but nothing leading to a confirmation that what the church teaches is true. It is more of, “Not a bad group to hang with.”

[Anonymous]

DA, AP, and LH, I’m right there with all of you. You have each said things I could say.

[Anonymous]

Is the function of the holy ghost to tell someone what is right for them (and for a particular moment in time I might add) or is it to tell someone what is right for everyone?

Let’s say that I receive a clear revelation that I should avoid eating peanuts. Unbeknownst to me and all of humanity I am the first person in history to have a peanut allergy (for the sake of argument).

Do I evangelize my revelation, tell everyone far and wide that eating peanuts is wrong? My revelation might be true for some small minority but for most everyone else my revelation does not apply.

Am I deluded because I’ve decided to avoid eating peanuts even in the face of millions of people eating peanuts to no ill effect? No, the revelation was personal and in my case it was the very voice that I needed to hear.

[Anonymous]

amateurparent wrote:

We each have our own journey. God gives us different answers. Not everyone reads the BOM, prays about it, and gets the same answer. That is the truth that doesn’t get talked about. It is a truth that should make us tread very softly around other beliefs. God is in their lives too. God speaks to all his children.

I should have read to the end before posting.

:thumbup:

[Anonymous]

rcronk wrote:

Do you believe the Holy Ghost can confirm truth such that a person can know something is true?

Lowell Bennion’s books suggest a form of compartmentalizing. Spiritual truth and value is of a different sort then empirical scientific truth. One does not pray to know if the answers that they submitted to a math assignment are true. Praying about whether or not a book is historically true would be trying to apply spiritual tools to find historical truth. However praying to know if a certain path or book or teaching is good for you and helps you to be a better person and/or if God would approve is applying spiritual tools to reach spiritual truth.

Suppose that it was discovered that the painting for the Mona Lisa was not a precise likeness. Suppose that Leonardo da Vinci took some creative license in his brush strokes (original Photoshop!). Would that decrease the value of the painting? It might if you are trying to use it to determine the actual appearance of the subject but not if you are appreciating the art for its beauty, skill, and power to inspire. Art and religion are more closely related than religion and science or religion and history. The value of art is not found in facts and yet art still has value.

rcronk wrote:

So what if someone claims to have received a witness of some of these fundamental truth claims of the LDS church after doing their own studying? Are we ok with that stance or do we think they’re deluded or what?

nibbler wrote:

Is the function of the holy ghost to tell someone what is right for them (and for a particular moment in time I might add) or is it to tell someone what is right for everyone?

I know that I love my wife. I believe that I received an answer to prayer that I should marry her. I do NOT suppose that anyone else should marry her, that she is the best wife in the world, or even that she is the most compatible partner for me specifically. But she is my choice, she is my love, and the life that I have built with her is a good one. The answer that I received is still true and just as valid as any other spiritual experience that I have had – it just doesn’t give me empirical, scientific, or historical truth.

rcronk wrote:

Isn’t that the guidance that the Book of Mormon, Bible, and D&C give?

Yes, and it absolutely has value and worth … to find personal spiritual truths. This should not be dismissed or diminished. Personal spiritual truths become the sort of building blocks for meaningful lives … a life more fully lived.

[Author]

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