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DH is dear husband. DW is dear wife. DD is dear daughter. … And thanks darkjedi – I was getting close to going and marking cronk as “foe” so I won’t see all his responses. It busted seemed overbearing and more telling us how it is instead of just how he feels and sees the world.
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Rcronk: DH is Dear Husband. You’ll see DH, DW, DS,DD for family relationships.
We are all broken. That is part of the human experience. We have spiritual strengths and weaknesses. We have trials in our lives. Every time I meet someone who appears to have a perfect life, I have found I just don’t know them well enough. We all have stuff. I believe that when we suffer and hurt in life, it isn’t a contest. We are all equal in our pain.
For some reason, members of this particular group had ended up on a different path than what they expected to be on. I cherish the openness, the caring, the non-judgement, and the sharing of ideas. I appreciate the lack of drama and manipulative behavior on the forum. It has been a blessing. A Mitzvah.
LookingHard wrote:DH is dear husband. DW is dear wife. DD is dear daughter. …
And thanks darkjedi – I was getting close to going and marking cronk as “foe” so I won’t see all his responses. It busted seemed overbearing and more telling us how it is instead of just how he feels and sees the world.
I thought I was telling you how I see and feel and experience the world. Quote the parts where I’m in violation so I can learn and change.
amateurparent wrote:Rcronk:
DH is Dear Husband. You’ll see DH, DW, DS,DD for family relationships.
We are all broken. That is part of the human experience. We have spiritual strengths and weaknesses. We have trials in our lives. Every time I meet someone who appears to have a perfect life, I have found I just don’t know them well enough. We all have stuff. I believe that when we suffer and hurt in life, it isn’t a contest. We are all equal in our pain.
For some reason, members of this particular group had ended up on a different path than what they expected to be on. I cherish the openness, the caring, the non-judgement, and the sharing of ideas. I appreciate the lack of drama and manipulative behavior on the forum. It has been a blessing. A Mitzvah.
Thanks. Help me understand where I’m being manipulative and judgmental so I can do better.
This is going to be as a participant and as an admin, which I try to avoid doing: The only line here is respect and a desire to stay LDS (in some way, to some degree, decided individually). Anti-Mormon diatribes aren’t welcome, but neither are testimonies that appear to be or feel like attempts to call to repentance, reprimand, convert, dismiss, etc. That can be a fine line, but it is an important one.
The tone of a comment often is just as important as the content. What causes issues are comments that seem to be saying, in one way or another, “I am right. My view is the one true view. If you only understood this as I do . . . Etc.”
All we have are words on a screen. We can’t see each other or embrace each other or ask for immediate clarifications in many cases. Therefore, it is important to ask ourselves how we would feel if someone else said to us what we have typed to others. It also is important to try, HARD, to read with charity and compassion – to avoid jumping to conclusions, to not see things as personal attacks, etc. The problem for many here is that they HAVE experienced personal attacks from members, so some things automatically read in that way. Those things trigger emothions that influence interpretation, and those emotions are as real and knowledge-based as seeing an accident.
Let’s all keep trying to maintain the respect that is the heart and soul of this site.
Love you all.
rcronk wrote:DarkJedi wrote:I guess I’m not sure what you’re referring to as “knowledge” here. I have often heard the witness of the Holy Ghost referred to as a feeling or an impression, and have also read on rare occasion that people heard an actual voice. This is different, of course, from the first vision and angel Moroni type of revelations described by Joseph Smith. I can’t say that I have every heard anyone else describe a revelation through the Holy Ghost as a “knowledge” and I can’t say that I have ever experienced anything more than a feeling (although sometimes a very intense feeling). Can you more fully describe what you mean?
There are many examples of what the Holy Ghost can do besides it being a feeling of peace. Here’s a starting point:
“The gift of the Holy Ghost…quickens all the intellectual faculties, increases, enlarges, expands, and purifies all the natural passions and affections, and adapts them, by the gift of wisdom, to their lawful use. It inspires, develops, cultivates, and matures all the fine-toned sympathies, joys, tastes, kindred feelings, and affections of our nature. It inspires virtue, kindness, goodness, tenderness, gentleness, and charity. It develops beauty of person, form, and features. It tends to health, vigor, animation, and social feeling. It invigorates all the faculties of the physical and intellectual man. It strengthens and gives tone to the nerves. In short, it is, as it were, marrow to the bone, joy to the heart, light to the eyes, music to the ears, and life to the whole being.” – Parley P. Pratt
I have, through my own experiences, found the above description to be true.
DarkJedi wrote:And, no, seeing an accident with your eyes and hearing it with your ears is not the same as feeling it. I also saw an accident yesterday – I didn’t feel it or feel impressed there was an accident. Other people also saw the accident. We all believe because we saw it. None of us felt it that I am aware of. My wife believes there as an accident because I told her I saw it – but were I a pathological liar she may not believe me, her choice. I can’t choose to believe or not believe the accident, I saw it – but I don’t have to believe you did.
I’m saying that my experiences with the Holy Ghost are more powerful than seeing or hearing something physically. No, you don’t have to believe me, you could instead find out for yourself if it can be more than just a peaceful feeling, firsthand. I did, and it has been life-changing.
No offense to you or PPP here, I’m sure he was a great person, but that quote is not scripture (unless you consider everything spoken by a GA scripture and most here do not). Scripture is actually quite vague on what the Holy Ghost does. I’ve been a member for over 3 decades, most of it active and much of it in leadership positions. At the risk of being repetitive, which is a concern I have about the thread, because you have had those experiences doesn’t mean we all have – even those of us who have served missions, served in leadership, or gone through a major repentance process. No amount of your testimony about your experiences changes that for me, just as my opposite testimony doesn’t change it for you. I learned the very hard way not to trust my feelings – even intense experiences – believing they are of the Holy Ghost. I can’t say my experiences with the Holy Ghost have been anything like what PPP describes. As for finding out for myself, I have found things to be quite different from what you describe – and I have tried. It is quite possible we’re both right – I don’t disbelieve you and your experiences but I also believe my own. I still don’t understand what you mean by the knowledge you referred to earlier – I don’t tend to just know things.
I envy your faith and belief – but it’s not something I’m likely to have any time soon.
Old-Timer wrote:This is going to be as a participant and as an admin, which I try to avoid doing:
The only line here is respect and a desire to stay LDS (in some way, to some degree, decided individually). Anti-Mormon diatribes aren’t welcome, but neither are testimonies that appear to be or feel like attempts to call to repentance, reprimand, convert, dismiss, etc. That can be a fine line, but it is an important one.
The tone of a comment often is just as important as the content. What causes issues are comments that seem to be saying, in one way or another, “I am right. My view is the one true view. If you only understood this as I do . . . Etc.”
All we have are words on a screen. We can’t see each other or embrace each other or ask for immediate clarifications in many cases. Therefore, it is important to ask ourselves how we would feel if someone else said to us what we have typed to others. It also is important to try, HARD, to read with charity and compassion – to avoid jumping to conclusions, to not see things as personal attacks, etc. The problem for many here is that they HAVE experienced personal attacks from members, so some things automatically read in that way. Those things trigger emothions that influence interpretation, and those emotions are as real and knowledge-based as seeing an accident.
Let’s all keep trying to maintain the respect that is the heart and soul of this site.
Love you all.
Thanks Ray. I will be more careful. I really don’t want to come across that way and I think this is good feedback for me to consider. I have a really think skin usually and so I think that’s part of it. I love you guys too, I don’t ever want to do harm or make things worse. I will re-read my replies before posting from now on to make sure I’m not doing any of the things you mention.
rcronk, Fair warning, I believe this video was put together with the intent of trying to convince people that religion is silly or that people are delusional for holding their beliefs.
I do not share that belief. The only reason I share this video is to communicate a point. Nearly every world religion has people that can say that god has communicated specific knowledge to them that they are on god’s true path. Some people might look at that and come away thinking that they can’t all be right, I can look at that and recognize how they can. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UJMSU8Qj6Gohttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UJMSU8Qj6Go” class=”bbcode_url”> —
rcronk wrote:I thought I was telling you how I see and feel and experience the world. Quote the parts where I’m in violation so I can learn and change.
rcronk wrote:It’s like you’re projecting your own experiences onto me.
rcronk wrote:That question is chock full of unsupported assertions and judgements. It’s kind of insulting too. But I’m pretty abrasive myself so I take no offense.
rcronk wrote:It might be just as prideful and self-righteous to judge your younger brother the way you are. Maybe not. I know nothing of the situation or your or his heart so I can’t say, but it’s a possibility.
rcronk wrote:Ok. You’re a better person than me.
In these comments it feels like you are going after other board members, not posting about your experiences. There’s a little sugar coating to take some of the sting away but those comments still have stingers in them.
rcronk wrote:Others have asserted that I am a victim of confirmation bias and am deluded by my feelings simply because because I desperately want them to be true.
Actually I’ve seen quite the opposite, people going out of their way to say that they don’t consider an orthodox viewpoint to be delusional. What I see is people saying that spiritual witnesses are highly personal and that spiritual witnesses are our truth, not necessarily
everyone’struth. rcronk – I will take your word as we are all at different places on our abilities to write and express things – something I am reminded how poor I am at when I read any of hawkgrrrl’s blogs over on W&T. Let me be clear – I want you hear and sharing. The reason I was considering putting you on the “foe” list wasn’t so much for what you were saying, but it seemed to me like you had to counteract and reply to every item that someone said. I already spend too much time on this blog and if someone is filling it up with what seems to me just “I am right” – I don’t get much out of that conversation. I didn’t come here to have someone (TBM or exmo) just TELL me. I wanted to find others struggling with the uncertainties of a faith crisis and into a faith transition. I DO share my opinion often here and I hope I am not guilt of exactly what I am asking you to curb a bit. It can be hard to see it in yourself.
But to give some examples so if you are sincere and your writing style is being (correctly or incorrectly) interpreted in a way you don’t mean, here you go
Quote:“I disagree with this because of my experiences.”
could be restated as
Quote:“my experiences make me see this differently.”
Quote:“But when people say things like, ‘feelings can be deceptive’ to someone witnessing of a revelation they received, that’s saying that they are deluded, misguided, without having any evidence whatsoever of that assertion of delusion.”
could be said
Quote:“But when people say things like, ‘feelings can be deceptive’ to someone witnessing of a revelation they received, it can be felt by the recipient that they are saying that they are deluded, misguided, without having any evidence whatsoever of that assertion of delusion.”
Quote:“That question is chock full of unsupported assertions and judgments. It’s kind of insulting too.”
Now you did go on and say that you took no offense, but saying “your ugly, no offense intended” (an exaggeration to make a point) still can offend. I personally took DA as someone that is really struggling with epistemology – or how do we “know” things? Look up Descartes – we have been struggling over this for a long time. It is a struggle I am in right now. So, how could that be re-phrased?
Quote:“It seems to me that this question is chock full of assertions and judgments that don’t seem to be supported and it could be taken as an insult, but I will give you the benefit of the doubt.”
Or maybe ask him for more explanation instead of pointing out that he is statement is lacking (maybe he didn’t have the time to write the book and explain it well enough).
It can be that your personality type sees these changes as either unneeded, silly, or mamby-pamby fluff. If my suggestions are off-base – other please correct or even teach me how it could be said better.
DarkJedi wrote:No offense to you or PPP here, I’m sure he was a great person, but that quote is not scripture (unless you consider everything spoken by a GA scripture and most here do not). Scripture is actually quite vague on what the Holy Ghost does. I’ve been a member for over 3 decades, most of it active and much of it in leadership positions. At the risk of being repetitive, which is a concern I have about the thread, because you have had those experiences doesn’t mean we all have – even those of us who have served missions, served in leadership, or gone through a major repentance process. No amount of your testimony about your experiences changes that for me, just as my opposite testimony doesn’t change it for you. I learned the very hard way not to trust my feelings – even intense experiences – believing they are of the Holy Ghost. I can’t say my experiences with the Holy Ghost have been anything like what PPP describes. As for finding out for myself, I have found things to be quite different from what you describe – and I have tried. It is quite possible we’re both right – I don’t disbelieve you and your experiences but I also believe my own. I still don’t understand what you mean by the knowledge you referred to earlier – I don’t tend to just know things.
I envy your faith and belief – but it’s not something I’m likely to have any time soon.
Yeah it’s not scripture. I have experienced some of the things described in it which is why I quoted it. The scriptures do talk about a variety of gifts of the spirit that deal with the gift of tongues, faith, wisdom, knowledge, teaching, etc. so maybe that’s similar in some ways. It also has dialogue between Nephi and the Holy Ghost in the form of a man for a chapter or so which gives some insight too.
For me, to know something usually requires witnessing it. For most of my life, that’s all I had experienced. Around age 22 I had the first experience that I remember of receiving knowledge from another being. For me, it was like being handed the experience. In that instance, I was handed the knowledge that God and my parents loved me.
In another experience, I was visiting a woman named Sylvia in Washington DC as a missionary (age 25 – late bloomer), and she had a Baptist preacher for a roommate and we were scared of that Baptist preacher and prayed that she’d stay in the back room every time we visited. Also every time we visited, Sylvia kept us at the door for 5 minutes cussing us out and telling us how we were going to hell. For some reason, it rolled off our backs and we just listened quietly. She would calm down and invite us in and we’d talk. This happened a few times (every time she would end up loving us and pleading for us to come back) and then the Baptist preacher came out near the end of a visit and I was scared to death. She sat quietly and listened. We finished and we’re talking about the Book of Mormon. So I said, “Hey let’s read a few of our favorite scriptures in the Book of Mormon and I picked Mosiah 3 because I like it and it talks about Christ in ways that I like. I felt the spirit just as a peaceful feeling and then something happened. My spirit was handed three pieces of information: 1) This is the word of God, 2) The baptist preacher sitting next to me had received the exact same message at the same time. 3) The baptist preacher just received the knowledge that I had received the knowledge too. Then we both stopped reading and looked up at each other and she said to me, “This is the word of God.” That confirmed the knowledge and the knowledge was given to me again.
It’s like receiving the knowledge without witnessing the experiences that were necessary to have gained that knowledge. I suppose if I was paying attention before I was born, I probably did see the Book of Mormon being written and translated, etc. such that I really already knew it but the witness and knowledge was hidden on the other side of the veil – it seems that the Holy Ghost just brought the knowledge part of it to my remembrance but not the witness part. I’m not sure how it works, but it’s stronger to me than witnessing something with my physical body and gaining knowledge that way.
And predicting that you won’t have faith and belief soon might not be a good plan. Just seconds before I received a testimony that God exists and loves me, I was pointing 180° in the opposite direction, spitting in God’s face with no idea anything was coming.
Life can be amazing. I had a different but similar experience as you described on my mission in Japan (and there was more afterward that added to it). I will never forget it – but I have no idea why I had it and many others don’t have similar experiences.
Laman told Nephi God didn’t give him and Lemuel visions. Maybe he wasn’t being hard-hearted in saying that; maybe he was being candid and completely truthful. Maybe if Nephi had accepted that, things might have been different. Maybe not, but maybe. At the very least, it’s worth considering.
rcronk wrote:It’s like you’re projecting your own experiences onto me.
rcronk wrote:That question is chock full of unsupported assertions and judgements. It’s kind of insulting too. But I’m pretty abrasive myself so I take no offense.
This was me standing up to being accused of being deluded by confirmation bias. Everything I said was true, but I probably should have stood up more politely. Delivery matters.
rcronk wrote:It might be just as prideful and self-righteous to judge your younger brother the way you are. Maybe not. I know nothing of the situation or your or his heart so I can’t say, but it’s a possibility.
Yeah, none of my business.
rcronk wrote:Ok. You’re a better person than me.
I actually meant this. It wasn’t sarcastic at all. Delivery fail.
nibbler wrote:In these comments it feels like you are going after other board members, not posting about your experiences. There’s a little sugar coating to take some of the sting away but those comments still have stingers in them.
Some didn’t have stingers and were just misunderstandings but point taken on the rest. I’m a recovering addict and standing up for myself is really difficult and I do it poorly so I apologize for that. I either end up being a doormat or standing up in anger rather than love for self. I hope you all can be patient with me. Getting your feedback is really helpful.
nibbler wrote:rcronk wrote:Others have asserted that I am a victim of confirmation bias and am deluded by my feelings simply because because I desperately want them to be true.
Actually I’ve seen quite the opposite, people going out of their way to say that they don’t consider an orthodox viewpoint to be delusional. What I see is people saying that spiritual witnesses are highly personal and that spiritual witnesses are our truth, not necessarily
everyone’struth. I was wrong. It was just one person asserting that stuff – the rest have been more than gracious. Thanks. Yeah personal revelation about personal things is personal. Agreed.
rcronk wrote:Yeah it’s not scripture. I have experienced some of the things described in it which is why I quoted it.
The scriptures do talk about a variety of gifts of the spirit that deal with the gift of tongues, faith, wisdom, knowledge, teaching, etc.so maybe that’s similar in some ways. It also has dialogue between Nephi and the Holy Ghost in the form of a man for a chapter or so which gives some insight too. The scriptures do indeed mention these things – at the same time mentioning that to some is given one and to some another. I really do believe that the Spirit can witness to someone that the Book of Mormon is true (as an example) while not giving the same witness to another – even though the other asks. I don’t know why and why not.
LookingHard wrote:It can be that your personality type sees these changes as either unneeded, silly, or mamby-pamby fluff. If my suggestions are off-base – other please correct or even teach me how it could be said better.
This was great feedback. It’s not just delivery. I’m full of guile and try to sugar coat it. I’ve got some work to do. I appreciate your rewording suggestions. If I was guileless, wording it in those better ways would just happen automatically. Thanks for your patience. I wrote so much today because it’s Saturday and I had some free time to catch up on replies. I can summarize better so it’s not so lengthy.
And to let you know, I have been tapped on the shoulder by the moderators also when I was a bit more upset and venting. I do find it interesting what a testimony of spirituality you have. Many of us here are more struggling to figure it all out. Did you come here to help save us all [emoji6]
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