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Dax, like you now, I used to be really strong anti-polygamy. I guess I can thank/blame Ray for some softening on my part. But the fact of the matter is that the church does allow multiple sealings for women (posthumously). I blogged about it last year: http://www.mormonheretic.org/2011/07/24/multiple-sealings-for-women/ About 15 years ago, I dated a widow. She was really bothered by the fact that she couldn’t be sealed to another man. At the time, I had no response. She said she felt like “used goods”. She said that her first husband didn’t treat her well, and she didn’t want to be sealed to him forever (he died in an avalanche.) She even spoke to a general authority about it. Since her first sealing was binding, she felt it didn’t matter if she married a non-member, so she did. The funny thing is that when she dies, she will be posthumously sealed to this guy. Since the church does allow polyandrous sealings, it seems a bit silly and counterproductive to not allow a woman to be sealed to multiple men in this life.
My brother died about 7 years ago, and his wife felt much the same way. She married a good man, but he wasn’t active, and they couldn’t be sealed together. My sister died 15 years ago. Her husband remarried without feeling like “used goods”. The sealing practices are tilted in favor of the men, and against the women. Brigham Young married many of Joseph’s wives, though it was for time I believe, not eternity. When a polygynous male died, his wives were encouraged to remarry other Mormon leaders, though only for time, not eternity. As of the 1969 change (thanks to President Howard W. Hunter and Pres. McKay), these women could now be sealed polyandrously to these men.
That changes perspective quite a bit, though obviously there is the feeling that “God will sort it all out in the next life.” Eliza R. Snow will have been sealed to Joseph and Brigham. While our theology teaches that she will get to choose in the next life, what if she chooses both? (Is that really not in the realm of possibility?)
Mormonheritic….as I have stated previously I do not care if their are multiple sealings.I do not care if Snow chooses both men in the next life not a problem. Issue arises when Polygamy is made into a religious commandment. Emma Smith remarried too, to a Methodist, I believe. Is she damned?! Quote:Emma Smith remarried too, to a Methodist, I believe. Is she damned?!
I am not in any position to judge Emma Smith, other than to say she handled the challenges in her life much better than I could have.
But there is a lot of popular opinion that she is.
rebeccad wrote:Quote:Emma Smith remarried too, to a Methodist, I believe. Is she damned?!
I am not in any position to judge Emma Smith, other than to say she handled the challenges in her life much better than I could have.
But there is a lot of popular opinion that she is.
I would put that mostly in past tense. BY certainly villified her.Even if I were to think in terms of a person god who is judging all beings…emma would have to be very high on the “saint” list for the BS she went through in life. Frankly, she suffered all the hell in this life one could possibly imagine. If there is a merciful god, then emma must have a very special place in heaven.
Wow….Emma dammed for living through what she did? I second wayfarers statements! Special place in Heaven for her!
I admire Emma greatly – and, all else aside, Joseph loved her deeply. If she is damned, there is neither mercy nor justice – and I personally believe Joseph would be miserable without her – that her damnation would be his damnation, also. FIW, I do not think Emma is damned IMHO. I find her a very interesting woman. But her later life seems to have followed the RLDS more. Maybe Brigham Young felt threatened by her in his position?
Thanks MH for answering my question. Deleted
never mind.
As for Emma’s estrangement from Brigham Young, well, it’s a pretty complicated story. I typed up a transcript of John Hamer’s view of the Succession Crisis, and I’d like to quote the relevant parts here to better understand Emma’s estrangement from the LDS. Following the succession crisis, there were several people vying for leadership of the church. The people with the “best” claims were (1) Sidney Rigdon, (2) William Marks, (3) Brigham Young, (4) James Strang, and eventually (5) JS III. There were others, but I’m going to limit discussion to these men, because they had the widest following. I’ll ignore Strang for this conversation, but according to John Hamer, Quote:“So who’s going to be the leader? Obviously it can’t be Joseph Smith III, he’s just a little kid. It’s not going to be Emma or anybody in the—immediately after. You know, she’s a woman, it’s that kind of time period. Hyrum is dead. Samuel Smith also dies very soon. The only living Smith left therefore an adulthood male is William Smith who is by far the most unsteady Smith. People don’t like William. He stays off in the east anyway because his wife is sick, so he’s gone for an entire year. So outside of the family in the church structure, what’s going to happen?
The options are the First Presidency; essentially they’ve lost key members recently, so William Law has been, you know he’s part of this whole reform movement that actually—he starts the Nauvoo Expositor, and he actually precipitates the entire martyrdom and everything like that that happens. So he is out of the church, but Sidney Rigdon is still there, so that’s an option, Sidney Rigdon. The other two options then, the two leading quorums are the High Council, the Presiding High Council, and previously, earlier in Mormon history, the High Council had been very important ruling body, especially in Far West, especially in the Missouri period, just right before Nauvoo.
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“So what happens is Emma and some of the people who agree with her, think that the head of the High Council should be the new head of the church, William Marks. But William Marks believes legally that Sidney Rigdon has the best claim, so he sides with Rigdon in the First Presidency as being the successor, so that essentially nullifies Marks’ claim, because it puts it with Rigdon, so that’s why it comes down to essentially Rigdon versus Young.”
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“there are these competing factions. There are the pro-polygamy faction and the anti-polygamy faction within the leadership of the church in Nauvoo, and Sidney is definitely seen as the standard bearer for the people who are against polygamy. The problem for the people who are in favor of polygamy is that this would immediately discredit their families, or actually their activities so if your daughter, like my great, great, great, great grandparents whose daughter Nancy Mariah Winchester married—one of the young wives who married Joseph Smith. They on the one hand, in a positive sense feel sealed to the prophet for all eternity. This is an important thing that brings their family to the highest degree of glory.
On the other hand, if it was to be rejected as a doctrine, suddenly this calls into question what she’s been doing, you know she could be a shamed woman essentially in Victorian America, so in a way, life or death, or at least reputation and your entire family is at stake as to whether this doctrine is sanctified or whether it’s rejected.”
I think this struggle between the pro and anti-polygamy factions cements the problems between Emma and Brigham. Following Joseph’s death, Emma loses all interest in organized religion, which I feel in large part leads to her marriage to non-Mormon Lewis Bidamon. I mean really the polygamy and persecution that Emma went through would try anyone’s faith. Then when her son Joseph III feels that God asks him to take over leadership of the RLDS Church, of course Emma would support her own son (though with reservations.) After Joseph III’s appointment as new prophet of the RLDS Church in 1860, there would be no reconciliation between her and Brigham. I think the succession crisis explains a lot of Emma’s motives and reservations about Brigham Young. This is kind of off topic, so if you’re interested in succession crisis, go to
http://www.mormonheretic.org/2012/05/24/john-hamer-interview-part-1/ SamBee wrote:FIW, I do not think Emma is damned IMHO.
I find her a very interesting woman. But her later life seems to have followed the RLDS more. Maybe Brigham Young felt threatened by her in his position?
Whether one believes Emma makes it to the CK or not will vary substantially depending on the understanding and definition of “endure to the end” and how much mercy may be applied there.
For a hardliner that believes “endure to the end” mean die in full fellowship with the church then I could see their perspective – especially when it comes down to siding with the Brighamite branch of the church.
I love the example of Lucy Mack in this scenario. She expressed goodwill and love to all members of the restorationist movement. She was unanimously voted/sustained as a “mother in Zion” in the GC under BY. Lucy was being pressed through the church’s agent in Nauvoo at the time to not let her son William into her home. The home had been paid for (to some extent) by the church and William had fallen out of favor with the church. So the reasoning was that the church didn’t want to be providing refuge/shelter to its enemies. Lucy writes a letter of strong rebuke that she who has lost so many sons for the cause of the restoration would be asked to turn this son away from her door.
Lucy was also very close to Emma and later lived with her until her death. She also loved to visit with and give (Matriarchal?) blessings to travelers from Utah and expressed great affection for them.
I imagine Lucy’s actions as a type or metaphor for a loving parent that is pained by the petty divisions of children. I imagine the loving Parent of us all responding with strong rebuke to the naysayers that would see Emma damned, “After all I have done and given for your sakes, would you also have me banish this daughter that I love from my presence?”
Beautifully said, Roy.
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