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We have two wards in our city and about a third of our city is zoned to attend a church building in a smaller community about 10 miles away. Interesting tangent that the LDS church can supplement this smaller city’s ward by forcing people to drive an extra 10 miles each way to attend church on Sunday. Anyway, the two wards in our city that share a building have been struggling and it was ultimately decided to disband our ward and fold it into the other ward. This means that the ward is somewhat larger and this has made it easier for us to be unnoticed and relatively unbothered in our smattering of church attendance. This also means that we have a new bishop and he recently reached out to our family to meet with my newly turned 17 year old son. We gave my son the option of having one of us go in with him but he opted to go alone. I prepped him for what I assumed would be mostly TR questions.
The actual interview actually turned out to be more of a “get to know you chat” than I had given the bishop credit for. In talking to my son afterwards he shared with me that the bishop told him that the Word of Wisdom is a commandment only given the members of the church to set us apart from the world and there is no sin for non-members to partake in these things. That seemed like a fairly novel approach. What truly blew me away was when the bishop told my 17 year old that religious proselyting missions aren’t for everyone. (my son is on the autism spectrum – so that may enter into what the bishop said)
I’m hopeful that this indicates a more compassionate, more member centric local ward administration.
Sounds promising so far. I sincerely hope your experience in your new ward remains positive. Bishop started F&T meeting by saying emotionally that his former bishop and two good friends from his previous ward have left the church (I thought at first that someone had died by how emotional he was getting). He framed it as how we all need to be careful because if it can happen to these fine individuals, it can happen to anybody. Still, this is yet another data point that my new bishop may be a little more compassionate on individuals going through a faith crisis. My husband is practicing being more nuanced, teaching our youngest how to be a more nuanced community member, and we are in the “differentiation” phase (mostly) again/still. He made conversational space for those who don’t necessarily believe in Jesus Christ but do believe in “Faith (in outside of themselves), Hope, and Charity” in Sunday School 2 Sundays ago [referencing my faith transition]
NOTE: I am glad that he put my faith transition in such a common ground way because that means that he sees it that way (finally). I am uneasy about “church activities 2024” because people might remember what he said and judge me if I was to show up. I “show up” with my boundaries where I decide to do so – so I can totally do the work to show up in those activities if I decide to do so – it’s just a tad more daunting.
There are a lot of victories in those statements though.
I am genuinely happy that my husband is going back to church and doing faithful practices to sustain himself instead of leaving it up to chance, or creating “emotional labor” for me to figure out what he needs and prompting/motivating him to get it.
“It could happen to anybody” is still fear-mongering in my book though:)
AmyJ wrote:
“It could happen to anybody” is still fear-mongering in my book though:)
Right. I think that active people need to frame it in such a way that Satan is behind people falling away. I take it as a small victory that, in these particular examples, the individuals that experienced a faith transition were described as wonderful, salt of the earth people.
This sounds like a compassionate person who has emotions that can be touched. Hopefully he is more on the Love spectrum than the Obedience spectrum. Obedience bishops can make your life really tough. This reminds me of when I was active. I had a vision of everyone being active, of all metrics strong, and felt a constant undercurrent of frustration with church service since none of this ever seemed attainable. I now realize that it ISN’T attainable, and my frustration and resulting judgmentalism of people who wouldn’t tow the line was unfounded. Hopefully your Bishop has also crossed that threshold.
For me personally, the Bishop is not the only element that sets the tone for any given ward. You can have a Bishop that is the perfect example of what a Priesthood holder should represent.
And the rest of the Ward goes in the opposite direction.
We’ve lived in the same Ward for over 50+ years. We’ve seen good & bad examples on both sides.
I’ve wondered how the membership of my Ward has judged me over the years.
Life is interesting.
They are probably judgmental toward you. Such is the trend among very orthodox members — myself included when I was committed. I got a feel for how the leadership views me when a former home teacher of mine came over to see me. He is a very loving person, and he told me he wasn’t pleased about what the leadership would say about me in their leadership meetings. I pressed him to tell me what they said, but he clammed up, so I never knew. But it was probably negative about how I’m a High Priest and am not committed.
I was very judgmental when I was fully committed. Judgmental toward people who wouldn’t make sacrifices to do their calling or didn’t function when called. Sometimes even negative when they refused a calling. I was very hard hearted toward the poor at certain times as well. There was one sister that comes to mind who, in my view, was not the fastest bunny in the hutch. She was self-sufficient financially until something unusual would happen (car repairs, medical bills) and would then go the church for financial assistance. I remember sitting in a meeting with her and the Bishop after I did a needs analysis and listening to her go through, line by line, everything we thought she could do to be more self-reliant. She had a reason why she couldn’t embrace each suggestion we had. You said I should do this, but I can’t do that for this reasons, You said I should do this other thing, and I can’t do that for this reason, etcetera. It was a rapid fire rebuttal of everything we suggested that she do — such as move closer to her work so she could walk, and then go down to one car.
Eventually a new Bishop cut her off, and so she moved into a different Ward.
Anyway, I get sidetracked. Bottom line, I felt it was her own fault she was poor — and recently read that is precisely the way we should NOT think about the poor. It’s as if God knows that the poor are often poor due to their own outlook on life, and doesn’t judge them for it.
If I ever get active again, and am in leadership, I will be a MUCH less judgmental and kind-hearted person. I will have low expectations for the behavior of others and the overall success of the church in terms of metrics (% of TR holders wth current TR’s, activity rates, prospective elders, ministering statistics). For years, all that stole my inner peace — no longer.
SilentDawning wrote:
They are probably judgmental toward you. Such is the trend among very orthodox members — myself included when I was committed.I got a feel for how the leadership views me when a former home teacher of mine came over to see me. He is a very loving person, and he told me he wasn’t pleased about what the leadership would say about me in their leadership meetings. I pressed him to tell me what they said, but he clammed up, so I never knew. But it was probably negative about how I’m a High Priest and am not committed.
I was very judgmental when I was fully committed. Judgmental toward people who wouldn’t make sacrifices to do their calling or didn’t function when called. Sometimes even negative when they refused a calling. I was very hard hearted toward the poor at certain times as well. There was one sister that comes to mind who, in my view, was not the fastest bunny in the hutch. She was self-sufficient financially until something unusual would happen (car repairs, medical bills) and would then go the church for financial assistance. I remember sitting in a meeting with her and the Bishop after I did a needs analysis and listening to her go through, line by line, everything we thought she could do to be more self-reliant. She had a reason why she couldn’t embrace each suggestion we had. You said I should do this, but I can’t do that for this reasons, You said I should do this other thing, and I can’t do that for this reason, etcetera. It was a rapid fire rebuttal of everything we suggested that she do — such as move closer to her work so she could walk, and then go down to one car.
Eventually a new Bishop cut her off, and so she moved into a different Ward.
Anyway, I get sidetracked. Bottom line, I felt it was her own fault she was poor — and recently read that is precisely the way we should NOT think about the poor. It’s as if God knows that the poor are often poor due to their own outlook on life, and doesn’t judge them for it.
If I ever get active again, and am in leadership, I will be a MUCH less judgmental and kind-hearted person. I will have low expectations for the behavior of others and the overall success of the church in terms of metrics (% of TR holders wth current TR’s, activity rates, prospective elders, ministering statistics). For years, all that stole my inner peace — no longer.
As a Bishop myself, I appreciate this thread overall. Love should always come first. Obedience is a learned byproduct of testimony building and our reason to be here on earth. We all go at our own pace.
When we are fully committed to Striving to be obedient, then we progress. I reserve judgement in all things based on that individual. We have guidelines to follow, to set a standard (which are there for a reason) but there is flexibility more and more in the church to understand and follow the spirit of the law while striving for obedience.
In questions of welfare, I can see why the bishop you mentioned stopped giving or refused assistance. Her reaction and lack of humility, based on your description, helps me understand the “why” of that bishops choice. Her moving wards after also shows a level of pride and unwillingness to accept the decision.
Fast offerings are church members donations from the local area (Ward and Stake) and should be used with inspired discretion. It is not a “right” to receive assistance just because you ask. Many considerations need to be taken before financial assistance is given out.
When a member is humble, when they have no other way out and when it is temporary…then finances are used.
Without more nuanced info, I can’t personally say what should have been done.
In regards to financial assistance that members willingness to listen pays a major part.
Rqatkins wrote:
Her reaction and lack of humility, based on your description, helps me understand the “why” of that bishops choice. Her moving wards after also shows a level of pride and unwillingness to accept the decision.
Welcome Bishop Rqatkins,
I observe that a lack of humility is one of the cardinal sins for a member to have concerning church/ward leadership. For this reason, my efforts to stayLDS have included presenting myself as struggling with my faith and testimony. I am a work in progress and growing and changing. I honor and respect the church leadership in their roles and accept that they have some level of authority and stewardship over me.
I observe that church leaders expect to be treated with deference like how you might act with a superior officer. I think treating them as an equal with equal knowledge and access to God as I might have would be considered a lack of humility at best or a spirit of apostacy at worst. I think that this lack of humility and/or remorse becomes one of the primary ingredients in excommunications. That is the general sense that I have on how things work in the ward and bishop’s office.
StayLDS however, functions much like a support group. All of us have experiences and perspectives that are equally worthy and valid. We share and are mutually supported in the sharing.
I hope, Bishop Rqatkins, that you can also have a spirit of humility within this group. Do you have any questions, concerns, or experiences that you would like to share? What brings you here? Perhaps, it would help to start with an introduction and you can tell the group about yourself.
Roy wrote:I observe that a lack of humility is one of the cardinal sins for a member to have concerning church/ward leadership. For this reason, my efforts to stayLDS have included presenting myself as struggling with my faith and testimony. I am a work in progress and growing and changing. I honor and respect the church leadership in their roles and accept that they have some level of authority and stewardship over me.
Roy- Thanks for the welcome! Im not sure how I came across StayLDS. I believe I was searching something online, and this forum came up as an answer to that topic/question.
Your response helps me better understand the purpose of this forum, which is wonderful.
I think too often concerns remain unsaid in church or aren’t brought up to RS, Eq or Bishopric leaders.
Then those concerns grow or deepen before they can be addressed.
This is a great opportunity to share thoughts, insights and concerns. So hopefully everyone can get inspired answers but also recognize they aren’t alone in what they have questions about.
For leadership, I can only speak for myself. I think it’s smart and healthy to recognize Bishops are human. While I have a stewardship for my ward, as a Shepard for a flock I am accountable.
I’ve served as a councilor in a Bishopric 3 times, and now as Bishop for over 3 years.
I can definitely say, there is a different feeling and access to inspiration and revelation as Bishop than ever before in any other calling in leadership.
That doesn’t mean I’m always right or that I’m the most knowledgeable in the gospel.
It is for every member to seek guidance from the spirit, from the Bishop when necessary, but also follow up that guidance with personal prayer and revelation as a confirmation of truth.
Anyone can be and is most likely prideful to some extent. Members and Bishops alike. It’s important be forgiving and understanding going both ways.
You mentioned excommunication, that is a very serious matter. In my experience it was applied more often and in a more strict manner in the past. I agree that a lack of humility is often what progresses that process further. If someone has sinned to the extent excommunication is considered, they are either repentant or not. If they are not being humble enough to repent, it’s not giving that membership council much choice. Also it’s not in the Bishops hands anymore. That decision is now solely the Stake presidencies decision.
There’s not a lot of thorough understanding in the church for what would constitute excommunication and that word is used too frivolously or incorrectly. It’s all in the handbook, members all have full access to that book through LDS library.
You can read all the procedures and guidelines we follow. Then we apply it all as best we can through prayer and a guidance of the spirit.
I’ve heard plenty of stories about Bishops who didn’t listen, who withheld support, gave poor advice, were too strict, or judged too harshly. That is all probably true to a certain extent.
I’ve also experienced and sat in Stake-Bishops council, almost as our own support group of Bishops, where we hear about experiences of members judging us, yelling, cursing us out, not listening to advice given as their life is falling apart, welfare funds withheld because a member won’t act to support themselves or fulfill requirements given before assstance can be shared… All of this happens as well.
If I’ve learned anything as Bishop, there are 3 sides to every story. Each person’s point of view, then what really happened, as Heavenly Father sees it. As someone shares their experience it’s typically relayed to express their point of view and usually justify their behavior.
My goal as Bishop is to align my Will and insight as closely to God’s as possible. Seeing others as he sees them.
Showing love and compassion first. Ultimately my job is to bring everyone to Christ. Make sure it’s clear he is the core of this church, its doctrine being taught and to share his love.
Rqatkins wrote:
I’ve also experienced and sat in Stake-Bishops council, almost as our own support group of Bishops, where we hear about experiences of members judging us, yelling, cursing us out, not listening to advice given as their life is falling apart, welfare funds withheld because a member won’t act to support themselves or fulfill requirements given before assstance can be shared… All of this happens as well.
I have no illusions that being in church leadership is easy. That is part of the reason why I always show respect for my leaders. They do a hard job. I have the ability to think with my higher brain function and control my responses. This makes me response+able for what I choose to say. I do not want to make anyone else’s job harder.
AmyJ wrote:
NOTE: I am glad that he put my faith transition in such a common ground way because that means that he sees it that way (finally). I am uneasy about “church activities 2024” because people might remember what he said and judge me if I was to show up. I “show up” with my boundaries where I decide to do so – so I can totally do the work to show up in those activities if I decide to do so – it’s just a tad more daunting.
There are a lot of victories in those statements though.
Amy, this is a great post with a lot to learn from your experiences! Thanks for sharing.
❤️ Your comment about being uneasy because people might remember what was said, then also being worried someone would judge you for being there…
Honestly, that would seriously surprise me if that happened or someone responds in a judgmental way. I think we often project what others “might” think or say. We create a false narrative of their response or judgements without giving them or yourself the benefit of the doubt. This can build unnecessary anxieties.
However, I hear this a lot. It’s a valid feeling, because at some point you have felt judged in the past or you wouldn’t feel this apprehension. Just like everyone in the world, LDS members are no different. We are all imperfect.
😅 We’ve had members say judgy things, or have that attitude that offends.
All I can say is it’s wonderful to see people attend and be involved, no matter their background or levels of faith and testimony. I’m rarely of ever concerned about their past, I’m just happy they are there and want to support them.
Rqatkins wrote:
Your comment about being uneasy because people might remember what was said, then also being worried someone would judge you for being there…Honestly, that would seriously surprise me if that happened or someone responds in a judgmental way. I think we often project what others “might” think or say. We create a false narrative of their response or judgements without giving them or yourself the benefit of the doubt. This can build unnecessary anxieties.
However, I hear this a lot. It’s a valid feeling, because at some point you have felt judged in the past or you wouldn’t feel this apprehension. Just like everyone in the world, LDS members are no different. We are all imperfect.
We’ve had members say judgy things, or have that attitude that offends.
All I can say is it’s wonderful to see people attend and be involved, no matter their background or levels of faith and testimony. I’m rarely of ever concerned about their past, I’m just happy they are there and want to support them.
I also struggle with this. How much of my discomfort is from others actions of ostracism and cold shoulder and how much is in my head?
I have an example that I think helps to illustrate things.
I don’t wear white shirts and ties to church. There is an expectation and (I believe) policy that men should wear white shirts and ties. I might have received some grace on the subject if I were an investigator but I’m an RM that has served in multiple past local leadership callings … I should know better.
So what is to be done? It doesn’t seem that the church is interested in relaxing this expectation around white shirts and ties. People are naturally going to survey and categorize who is compliant and not. People are going to judge. I get that people are not perfect, however, it is also true that we can create an atmosphere where the behavior that we want is encouraged and the behavior that we don’t want is discouraged. The LDS environment just happens to be one where we care an awful lot about uniformly white shirts and ties.
On the other hand, I think some may suggest that I just submit and wear a white shirt and tie. Yes, I could do that and by checking this and a host of other boxes, I might manage to better fit in and thus reduce some of the discomfort and judgement that I feel from both internal and external sources.
I guess, at the core, I feel that almost nobody at church is really happy to see ME for who I am and wants to support ME in the way that I want to be supported. I think that a good number of well meaning individuals are happy to see that I made the effort to come to church and would be happy to support me in following whatever they might view as my next step down the covenant path. I think they become bewildered and frustrated when helping me down the covenant path is not the form of support that I find helpful.
Back to the OP, I haven’t had enough interaction with this new bishop of mine to know if he might be an exception. How wonderful it would be if he might just be interested in getting to know my family and seeing what can be done to support us in ways that we might want to be supported. I am cautiously hopeful.
Bishop, I’m glad you joined our group. It gives our discussions a whole new perspective & understanding. To give you some background of who we are. Some of us have:
. lost children through miscarriage, cancer, accidents or suicide.
. gone through a divorce.
– gone through other rejections in life.
. lost family when we joined the church.
. lost jobs.
. suffered health &/or financial problems or issues.
. experienced a child who went through physical or sexual abuse.
. have questions about scriptures, church history or gospel teachings.
. have questions regarding doctrine.
. etc.
Many of us who have joined the conversation have found this to be a safe place to discuss our issues & gain insights
without judgement.
I personally joined the church when I was a senior in college. After joining the church, I held various callings,
got married in the temple, etc. All the practices & beliefs that made us fully participating members in the church.
I personally believed that if we did all things we were taught, believed & practiced, we would be protected when the
hard times came. If we didn’t have protection than inspiration & spiritual support, knowledge or enlightenment.
When I went through my challenges, I prayed about them, I went to my Bishop & I talked with friends that I knew.
Nothing seemed to help. I would go to church & everything seemed black. Some of what I was experiencing could probably
be diagnosed as depression. What I’m trying to say is: going to church & staying active seemed to make it worse.
I think my problem accepting what we were going through is what I now describe as the Joseph Smith formula for receiving
answers to prayer. Which includes the following:
. go to your own sacred grove.
. ask your prayer.
. God will answer & give comfort.
. You move on knowing God answers prayers & gives comfort.
. You are better off from the experience.
I know now that this is a very naive approach & belief.
It took time (years) to work through my pain with the help of my Home Teacher, at the time.
In the process of working through this challenge I’ve learned the following:
. I will never be the same person I was before my Faith Crisis (FC).
. I’m open to other ideas & beliefs.
. I’m not as judgmental as I was before my FC.
. Obedience is hard in the face of a FC.
. I’m beginning to believe that this is the way God wants the process to work. (For me anyway.)
Rqatkins wrote:
…As a Bishop myself, I appreciate this thread overall. Love should always come first. Obedience is a learned byproduct of testimony building and our reason to be here on earth. We all go at our own pace.When we are fully committed to Striving to be obedient, then we progress. I reserve judgement in all things based on that individual. We have guidelines to follow, to set a standard (which are there for a reason) but there is flexibility more and more in the church to understand and follow the spirit of the law while striving for obedience.
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