New Ward, New Bishop

[Anonymous]

Rqatkins wrote:

AmyJ wrote:

NOTE: I am glad that he put my faith transition in such a common ground way because that means that he sees it that way (finally). I am uneasy about “church activities 2024” because people might remember what he said and judge me if I was to show up. I “show up” with my boundaries where I decide to do so – so I can totally do the work to show up in those activities if I decide to do so – it’s just a tad more daunting.

There are a lot of victories in those statements though.

Amy, this is a great post with a lot to learn from your experiences! Thanks for sharing. ❤️

Your comment about being uneasy because people might remember what was said, then also being worried someone would judge you for being there…

Honestly, that would seriously surprise me if that happened or someone responds in a judgmental way. I think we often project what others “might” think or say. We create a false narrative of their response or judgements without giving them or yourself the benefit of the doubt. This can build unnecessary anxieties.

However, I hear this a lot. It’s a valid feeling, because at some point you have felt judged in the past or you wouldn’t feel this apprehension. Just like everyone in the world, LDS members are no different. We are all imperfect. 😅

We’ve had members say judgy things, or have that attitude that offends.

All I can say is it’s wonderful to see people attend and be involved, no matter their background or levels of faith and testimony. I’m rarely of ever concerned about their past, I’m just happy they are there and want to support them.

I know most of it is on me aka “in my head”. I am also aware that it is “backed by personal experience” of mis-judgement.

THE OTHER SIDE OF THE COIN:

The other side of the coin:

– If I show up at church and “mask” enough to look like a Christian, what happens if “the mask comes off” and my heretical imposter state is made known?

– If I show up at church as a non-Christian, people are not comfortable with that and ask that I show up “as a Christian” again. It’s not fair to the Christians in the room who came to church looking for sanctuary “away from the world” and “away from thinking/cognitive discomfort” for me to show up and take that away from them.

THE “ART” OF GATHERING

Assuming that church meetings and activities are “gatherings” and that the whole purpose of “gathering” is to do something useful [uplift people, perfect the saints, redeem the dead, proclaim the gospel, etc.], then my showing up “to gather” is about that. My showing up with my non-testimony does nothing to “perfect the saints”, is heretical to the “proclaim the gospel” goals, and has nothing to do with “redeeming the dead”. Assuming that the heretical contrast I bring because of my doubts, because of my questions is actually uplifting for some people and helps some people become better Christians is a big “if” to me that I am no longer willing to bet the farm on.

Priya Parker (a gathering expert and crucial conversation leader – she has stronger street creds then this though) has a foundational topic of “Excluding from the Gathering Generously”. That not everyone deserves an invite into the gathering, the conversation, the activity.

Quote:

So how, you might ask, do I exclude generously? This issue comes up a lot when I’m organizing large, complicated meetings for clients. These are some of the questions I ask them:

Who not only fits but also helps fulfill the gathering’s purpose?

Who threatens the purpose?

Who, despite being irrelevant to the purpose, do you feel obliged to invite?

The formatting is added by me.

THE “ART” OF GATHERING PERSONAL CONCLUSIONS:

– There are scads of quotes from general authorities and prophets throughout the time that clearly point out that as a feminist, as an intellectual, an LGBTQIA+ ally (or at least “live and let live” non-engagement), and as a non-Christian, I am “a threat to the church organization purpose” in the worst case scenario, and “the person invited out of obligation who is irrelevant to the church organization purpose”.

– My faith transition has taken me down a route that I personally am not necessarily interested in fulfilling the church organization’s purposes for gathering.

– I did make friends and built parts of my community at church. I do what I can to keep in touch with those individuals at church who are integral to my family-community and to be “a good friend”. It’s just currently independent of church confines and church doctrine/teachings.

– Most people whom I thought were friends do not reach out to me unless I reach out to them. They are also comfortable enough saying “hi” and then it gets weird for them and they don’t know what to say. I expected this behavior from them for a lot of valid reasons, and it’s hard for them to engage in the work of “being friends” when we have the religious thought divide.

[Anonymous]

Minyan Man wrote:

Bishop, I’m glad you joined our group. It gives our discussions a whole new perspective & understanding.

To give you some background of who we are. Some of us have:

. lost children through miscarriage, cancer, accidents or suicide.

. gone through a divorce.

– gone through other rejections in life.

. lost family when we joined the church.

. lost jobs.

. suffered health &/or financial problems or issues.

. experienced a child who went through physical or sexual abuse.

. have questions about scriptures, church history or gospel teachings.

. have questions regarding doctrine.

. etc.

I would add that some of us have:

– Neurodiversity/Different Brain Wiring (which is a collaborator/enhancer of every single point that MM made).

NOTE: For some of us with life-long ADHD/AuDHD/ASD and a host of other brain wiring and cognitive development paths, church performance expectations that are daunting to the average individual are downright unrealistic for neuro-diverse individuals. “The guaranteed path of Happiness” doesn’t work for us the way it works for the average individual. Eventually, we make “Loving Kindness” accommodations for ourselves and set boundaries on our engagement for self-preservation (and then get stomped on by “Purity Culture – One Size Fits All” expectations of conformity and declared “presumptuous” for our boundaries).

Minyan Man wrote:

Many of us who have joined the conversation have found this to be a safe place to discuss our issues & gain insights

without judgement.

I personally joined the church when I was a senior in college. After joining the church, I held various callings,

got married in the temple, etc. All the practices & beliefs that made us fully participating members in the church.

I personally believed that if we did all things we were taught, believed & practiced, we would be protected when the

hard times came. If we didn’t have protection than inspiration & spiritual support, knowledge or enlightenment.

When I went through my challenges, I prayed about them, I went to my Bishop & I talked with friends that I knew.

Nothing seemed to help. I would go to church & everything seemed black. Some of what I was experiencing could probably

be diagnosed as depression. What I’m trying to say is: going to church & staying active seemed to make it worse.

I think my problem accepting what we were going through is what I now describe as the Joseph Smith formula for receiving

answers to prayer. Which includes the following:

. go to your own sacred grove.

. ask your prayer.

. God will answer & give comfort.

. You move on knowing God answers prayers & gives comfort.

. You are better off from the experience.

I know now that this is a very naive approach & belief.

This site helped me make sense of a lot of the “unwritten expectations” and standards (such as “white shirt wearing and symbolism”).

I usually have an opinion about something, and it helped me to hear what others were doing and had done to create a better/safer experience. I hope that people can take a piece of what I say here and have better/safer experiences for themselves (I have gotten compliments from specific individuals through the years to believe that is the case – if you are one of those please smile, half-laugh and get on with your life – I am not fishing for compliments here).

Minyan Man wrote:

It took time (years) to work through my pain with the help of my Home Teacher, at the time.

In the process of working through this challenge I’ve learned the following:

. I will never be the same person I was before my Faith Crisis (FC).

. I’m open to other ideas & beliefs.

. I’m not as judgmental as I was before my FC.

. Obedience is hard in the face of a FC.

. I’m beginning to believe that this is the way God wants the process to work. (For me anyway.)

AMEN.

My twists are that I had my mother, my grandfather, and access to a professional counselor (not faith-transition specific). I also found a ton of research from random sources.

“Obedience” as a virtue is cannon fodder for a faith crisis/faith transition and it gets mowed down pretty heavily. At best, the individual makes the changes they need to aim for points where “Obedience” lurks and actually blast away something that was useless and harmful instead of something vital. There is a definite shift from “following church directives/values/policy and identifying the church as a moral authority” to “creating personal directives, integrating personal values, creating personal policy, and authorizing yourself to be and acting on your own moral authority” that cannot be talked about enough

Sarah Bessey (a Christian faith transition expert) compares the whole process to home renovation. Her husband was a pastor who turned into a home restoration expert. After years into this process, they wince at the home repair shows where the host gets unleashed into a house with a sledge hammer.

Her husband’s experience has been that the more demolition and renovation that needs to happen, the more important it is to go slowly, plan for preservation and sustainable extraction rather then full-fledged, uncontrolled, unchanneled abandon. The older the home, the more likely there are that there are unsafe chemicals in the walls and other parts of the house that weren’t exposed to air or managed before.

She describes her faith transition as “being unleashed with a metaphorical/religious life sledge hammer” for specific parts of the process (and how it did or didn’t go well). She writes from a point of view that feels/seems rueful and curious about what it would have been like to have a “non-sledge hammer managed faith transition”.

Minyan Man wrote:

Rqatkins wrote:

…As a Bishop myself, I appreciate this thread overall. Love should always come first. Obedience is a learned byproduct of testimony building and our reason to be here on earth. We all go at our own pace.

When we are fully committed to Striving to be obedient, then we progress. I reserve judgement in all things based on that individual. We have guidelines to follow, to set a standard (which are there for a reason) but there is flexibility more and more in the church to understand and follow the spirit of the law while striving for obedience.

I have come to the conclusion that the “Ultimate Battle” isn’t between “Good and Evil” (Sorry Alan Dean Foster and Tolkien), it’s between “Purity (and Obedience and Conformity)” and “LovingKindness (and Not Obeying and Not-Conforming)”. I think that our progression happens as we identify the over-arching themes/goal posts and make informed decisions. The church is here to “Generate Purity” and to “produce sanctified individuals”. On the doctrinal “Grace {LovingKindess} vs Works {Purity}” question – the church doctrine is very much in the “Purity/Works” camp and is biased to favor that. The “good news” that Jesus taught seems inclined towards the “LovingKindess” camp – but even that is murky in my mind.

We absolutely need guidelines and standards to raise the generations after us (and to raise ourselves with) AND we need to have better language about what we are doing, more understanding of what the hormones in our bodies are doing (and the real-time epigenetics impact of our chemical tinkering throughout the centuries), and a less shame-filled way to empower people.

[Anonymous]

Roy wrote:

I guess, at the core, I feel that almost nobody at church is really happy to see ME for who I am and wants to support ME in the way that I want to be supported. I think that a good number of well meaning individuals are happy to see that I made the effort to come to church and would be happy to support me in following whatever they might view as my next step down the covenant path. I think they become bewildered and frustrated when helping me down the covenant path is not the form of support that I find helpful.

I’d like to combine this paragraph with some things that Amy wrote.

AmyJ wrote:

Assuming that church meetings and activities are “gatherings” and that the whole purpose of “gathering” is to do something useful [uplift people, perfect the saints, redeem the dead, proclaim the gospel, etc.], then my showing up “to gather” is about that. My showing up with my non-testimony does nothing to “perfect the saints”, is heretical to the “proclaim the gospel” goals, and has nothing to do with “redeeming the dead”. Assuming that the heretical contrast I bring because of my doubts, because of my questions is actually uplifting for some people and helps some people become better Christians is a big “if” to me that I am no longer willing to bet the farm on.

AmyJ wrote:

– If I show up at church as a non-Christian, people are not comfortable with that and ask that I show up “as a Christian” again. It’s not fair to the Christians in the room who came to church looking for sanctuary “away from the world” and “away from thinking/cognitive discomfort” for me to show up and take that away from them.

To be fair to the church and me dear ward members, it is not reasonable to expect them to support and validate me in living the gospel my way. The purpose for the “gathering” is to bask in the validating radiance of like minded individuals. My presence doesn’t help that purpose and may detract from it. (There can be a benefit from some amount of diversity to avoid extremes of group think, however, the individual that goes against the grain too often risks being seen as less valiant or zealous and therefore marginalized from the group).

We teach that conformity, obedience, and childlike trust and humility are necessary virtues. My stubborn non-conformity presents as an odd mystery at best and as a lurking danger at worst. (Not wearing a white shirt and tie is simply a very visible and non-threatening manifestation of my non-conformity.)

Quote:

“It’s not fair to the Christians in the room who came to church looking for sanctuary “away from the world” and “away from thinking/cognitive discomfort” for me to show up and take that away from them.”

One technique that I have used successfully in my effort to StayLDS is to attend only SM (I then go home but I’ve also heard of others hanging out in the foyer instead of going to second hour classes). Because SM is a one sided presentation with no participation expected or allowed from the congregation, I can attend without harming anyone’s worldview and without feeling silenced by hearing comments from others and knowing that my comments are unwelcome. Only attending SM has been somewhat of a tenuous compromise. It allows me to retain a foothold in the community for me and my family.

[Anonymous]

Thanks for collaborating with me, Roy:)

“Community” is such a variable parameter to play with.

For a good 2 years before COVID, I was an active church goer who dragged her tween and toddler/pre-school child to church while teaching RS and sorting out a lot of “atheist/agnostic” currents while my believing husband stayed home for a variety of “health” reasons [to be fair, these are valid health reasons – there are physical aspects of the church community such as fragrances and cleaning supplies that generate migraines. There were patterns of shame spiral behavior that church attendance triggered that avalanched into our family life and family culture with traumatic results.]

I wanted to find a good community at church for my tween, but church was not her community. And the harder I worked at making community for her, for me, and for my younger daughter that didn’t pit us girls against my husband, the more it didn’t work for me and it generated resentment and anger instead.

COVID helped me to realize that exiling myself from the LDS community and creating distance and boundaries was what I needed. After that, I put in a good 4 years of work on our family culture, our family community and have delved into “what we need” for family accommodations.

My husband is trying to make the LDS community thing work again for himself and for our youngest. I am happy for him and fearful about the intellectual load we would be putting on our 8 year old to help her understand that God won’t necessarily punish her non-believing sister even though that will be taught to her black & white thinking focused brain (extreme example of the cognitive dissonance/opposing camps our choices could impose on her).

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