- This topic is empty.
-
Posts
-
Yes, Heber. I agree that it is quite speculative and not supported in scripture. It is just how some find semi-orthodox/apologist answers for the “How or why would god keep us apart?” quandary. I don’t want to take away from the thoughtful comments, but one thing that holy cow reminded me of was dealing with percentages. I have heard that the current % of people in the world at this time is 0.07%. I think one of the leaked documents talked about the current rate of temple marriages is 6% of the membership is getting temple marriages. It wasn’t clear on how that is generated, is it per year marriages or is 6% of all 15M members???
But anyway, the LDS make a VERY small number of the people on earth today and only a small fraction of them are sealed in the temple. Don’t even try to calculate given all mankind up to this point as it gets into too many zeros to the right of the decimal point.
If we are saying that just having a sealing can “help” a marriage, then that seems outrageously unfair why so few people get to have that blessing in their marriage in mortality.
I agree with about 95% of what you just said :angel: Roy wrote:It was frightening at first to be in a position were church records and temple ordinances meant nothing….
Quote:For me lately I have begun to think of the temple sealing like training wheels. They can be super helpful to provide for stability and balance as you try to find your footing. However, there also comes a point where they can be unnecessary and
even a hindranceto a more mature and fully developed familial love.
I feels to me like we need to change (ala Bushman) the “dominant narrative” of the temple, or too many who find themselves considering the possibility that it’s all meaningless won’t have any alternative ways to look at it.
LookingHard wrote:
I don’t want to take away from the thoughtful comments, but one thing that holy cow reminded me of was dealing with percentages.I have heard that the current % of people in the world at this time is 0.07%. I think one of the leaked documents talked about the current rate of temple marriages is 6% of the membership is getting temple marriages. It wasn’t clear on how that is generated, is it per year marriages or is 6% of all 15M members???
But anyway, the LDS make a VERY small number of the people on earth today and only a small fraction of them are sealed in the temple. Don’t even try to calculate given all mankind up to this point as it gets into too many zeros to the right of the decimal point.
If we are saying that just having a sealing can “help” a marriage, then that seems outrageously unfair why so few people get to have that blessing in their marriage in mortality.
This is only my stake and gleaned from the quarterly report. About 22% of our members are sealed in the temple. About 18% of the total membership hold a current TR. SM attendance is about 37%.
Wow, compared with the rest of the world, I guess I’m elite because I am currently endowed without a TR — the only people in the world that can beat that are the fractional people who are endowed WITH TR’s!!! And even a smaller percentage of those, SD, are Eagle scouts, and 33rd level Master Masons, within the inner circle of the inner workings of the highest levels of the temple to receive promises of the highest degree of the highest kingdom of heaven. If you’re into that kinda thing…there are promises that you are special and peculiar from the world. 
No, I don’t believe that. My view of eternal progression is much more expansive than that. Last year my brother (a TBM) called me to talk about our leaving the lds church (but not officially taken our names off the records). It really bugged me when he said that, I would not have my marriage for eternity, because of leaving the church. What he said was very manipulative. I told him that we know longer believed in the lds church and temple ceremonies to be from God and that God would not condemn us or our marriage if we thought something was false. I told my brother we had not taken our names off the church records and that if God ever told us to come back to the lds church, we would. That seemed to appease him. So many members believe that no one but those sealed in the temple will have their marriages for eternity. Jesus always taught the spirit of the law vs the letter of the law, so I go by that. bridget_night wrote:
Last year my brother (a TBM) called me to talk about our leaving the lds church (but not officially taken our names off the records). It really bugged me when he said that, I would not have my marriage for eternity, because of leaving the church. What he said was very manipulative. I told him that we know longer believed in the lds church and temple ceremonies to be from God and that God would not condemn us or our marriage if we thought something was false. I told my brother we had not taken our names off the church records and that if God ever told us to come back to the lds church, we would. That seemed to appease him. So many members believe that no one but those sealed in the temple will have their marriages for eternity. Jesus always taught the spirit of the law vs the letter of the law, so I go by that.
D&C 132:26 “Verily, verily, I say unto you, if a man marry a wife according to my word, and they are sealed by the Holy Spirit of promise, according to mine appointment, and he or she shall commit any sin or transgression of the new and everlasting covenant whatever, and all manner of blasphemies, and if they commit no murder wherein they shed innocent blood, yet they shall come forth in the first resurrection, and enter into their exaltation;”
If anyone holds to a literal interpretation of LDS doctrine, you are ALL SET! You were sealed in the temple. Exaltation? BAM! Godhood? BAM! Just don’t murder anyone, and it’s all yours. That is literally what it says, in the scriptures,
solid doctrine!Of course, people try to explain this away. But they’ve got to take some pretty strong liberties in their recontruction. There’s nothing in there that says you lose your sealing, if you follow your honest consience in leaving the Church. I’m in the same boat; as soon as God gives the word, I will follow the Church to the very end. I think the Heavenly Father, as taught by the LDS church, would understand.
Many of us have been TBM at one point or another. I know I have. I would’ve reacted the same was as he did. Don’t hold it against him. He doesn’t understand.
I think you have to take the scriptures as a whole. There are a lot of BoM scriptures that talk about enduring to the end. I they need to be mined to see if they apply to exhaltation. This scripture seems to fly in the face of everything we hear at church. Is it possible everyone’s misguided? SilentDawning wrote:
I think you have to take the scriptures as a whole. There are a lot of BoM scriptures that talk about enduring to the end. I they need to be mined to see if they apply to exhaltation. This scripture seems to fly in the face of everything we hear at church. Is it possible everyone’s misguided?
I have wondered about this myself, SD. I have endurance/endure to the end on my list of future study topics. Part of my question is what exactly is endurance or what does endurance mean? Have I failed to endure to the end because of my inactive period? There is a member in a neighboring ward who was inactive for 30 years. He married a nonmember, went inactive and raised his children in a secular world. I don’t believe they attended any church. Now in their sixties and thirty years on his wife meets the missionaries and converts but he does not immediately return. Eventually he does return and they are sealed in the temple and they both serve in weighty callings. Did he endure or is that what he’s doing now? Is that what the parable of the workers is about?
This is probably just me, but I often feel “judged” by others who have always been active when they bring up enduring to the end and seemingly pridefully testify about how they have endured (sometimes despite doubts, etc.). I feel like saying “Hey, I can hear you! I’m sitting right here.” My ward knows my history. So, what role does the atonement play in endurance? My guess is probably more than they understand. (Side note, these are the same people who dismiss grace and are absolutely convinced we are saved by works.)
SilentDawning wrote:
I think you have to take the scriptures as a whole. There are a lot of BoM scriptures that talk about enduring to the end. I they need to be mined to see if they apply to exhaltation. This scripture seems to fly in the face of everything we hear at church. Is it possible everyone’s misguided?
It does, which is why I picked it.
I think reality is much more complicated. If this life is merely a spec in the eternities (as is also commonly taught), and the end goal is to become an all-powerful, omnipotent being who will create worlds without end… I’m sure there is an obscene amount of “personal progress” that goes on after this life before we reach the end goal. The atonement allows us to “repent” of our sins, turn from them, and become a little more like Christ. And in the scriptures, the atonement still has very much the same effect after this life.
Truthfully, I’m not sure many (if any) have the slightest clue as to what is going on in this life. Think of the post-apostacy, pre-restoration period. What if the entire world has always been in a post-apostacy, pre-restoration state? As there is a God in Heaven, and an eternal destiny for all of mankind, I think Heavenly Father must see great value in “bumbling around” and “trying to figure things out on our own”. I feel pretty confident this life isn’t about absolute answers. And if so, would God really hold it against us if we changed our beliefs and our lifestyles, when confronted with what we judge to be better information? And if we mis-judge, not out of rebellion, but our lack of understanding, will he hold it against us?
The arguement has been made that early JS polygamy was all about sealing people together. Families were sealed, couples were sealed, friends were sealed. Sealing became almost like a fraternity.. There is recorded arguing over who got to be the patriarchal figure in sealings. It looked more like Team Jacob vs Team Sparkle It is impossible for me to hear about the early sealings, the sealings that were done in the endowment houses rather than temples, the presence of non-members in those events, and then turn around and take the current sealings as more serious and sacred than they were in the primitive church.
The church has formalized many things and made sealings into a more sacred element. That doesn’t mean God had anything to do with it.
I do believe that God smiles when we align ourselves with one another and make promises that represent love, kindness, and responsibility. I also think he is okay with us shifting alliances. Maybe the church will eventually catch up.
amateurparent wrote:
It is impossible for me to hear about the early sealings, the sealings that were done in the endowment houses rather than temples,the presence of non-members in those events, and then turn around and take the current sealings as more serious and sacred than they were in the primitive church.
Just when I thought I had heard everything…
Does something that gets you to feverishly study yet another aspect of church history count as a “trigger”?
amateurparent wrote:
The church has formalized many things and made sealings into a more sacred element. That doesn’t mean God had anything to do with it.
I present Exhibit B in support of this statement: when Joseph introduced the endowment and sealing, he wasn’t worthy of a temple recommend using today’s criteria.
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.